Featured Double Predestination

read the end of Ezekiel 18

 

Romans 9:22-23. 'What if God, wanting to show His wrath and make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy , which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He called.....'

2 Thessalonians 1:9-10. 'These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all who believe.....'

Revelation 16:5-7. 'And I heard the angel of the waters saying, "You are righteous, O lord, the One who is and was and is to be, because You have judged these things.
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink, for it is their just due."
And I heard another voice from the altar saying, "Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgements."'

In each of these texts, God is praised and glorified for His righteous judgements upon the wicked. Just read them.

Because God is also to be praised for His longsuffering. Like the people of Noah's day, and like the Canaanites, these people have had ample opportunity to repent but they will not do so; not because God prevents them, but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. Their condemnation is deserved. However, you and I were no better, no more deserving, but God in His mercy rescued us from the wrath we so richly deserved (Titus 3:3-7).

I know Ezekiel 18:32 is in the Bible and of course I believe it is absolutely true. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. That is something we can agree upon. A human judge takes no pleasure in sentencing someone to life imprisonment, but he still does it

If they repented, as they did, they were part of God's elect QED. God shows mercy on those to whom He will show mercy.

In Revelation 7:9-10, we read of a great crowd of the redeemed, so vast that no man can count it. I do not see that it gets any bigger or smaller depending on whether one is a Calvinist or Arminian, but I do note that they are 'crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb.".

And so it does.

 

False dilemma fallacies are awesome!

Watch...

If God predestines some to salvation the only other alternative is that he predestines the others to damnation.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

Jesus Christ died for the entire human race, including Judas.

I have asked this before, can any Reformed person explain John 3:16-18?

 

I don't think that you actually understand what you are saying and even believe! There is not ONE Scripture that says that God is in any way "glorified" by the fall of man, or the death of the wicked in hell. NONE of the passages that I have been given over again, ever say this. Election as taught by the Reformed is nonsense, as it can never square with the simple passage of John 3:16-18, show me how election and predestination in Reformed teaching, can agree with this passage. I wait.

 

God so loved the world...The word 'world' does not mean 'everybody whoever lived'.


If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.[John 15:19]

The Father has chosen His elect sheep from the world. They are no longer of the world, but were chosen out of it. It also says the world hates us, the believers. So just in this one verse alone, the word 'world' can not mean 'everybody whoever lived', but rather it means all over the world.

 

I know that the Greek word κόσμος does not always mean "the entire human race". However, contextually, John 3:16 does, as it is the only way that this word used here can be understood. The leading Greek scholars are in agreement that κόσμος here means the "entire human race", as did John Calvin.

J H Thayer:

“the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race. Jn. i.10, 29, iii.16sq”

W F Arndt and F W Gingrich:

“of all mankind, but especially of believers as objects of God’s love”

J Parkhurst:

“the world, i.e., the whole race of mankind, both believers and unbelievers, both good and bad.”

E Robinson:

“the world for the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind. John.1.29, 3:16”

Hermann Cremer:

“It denotes the ordered entirety of God’s creation, humanity itself”

The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words:

“in Jn. kosmos almost always denotes the world of humans, esp. the world of sinful humanity that opposes God, resists the redeeming work of the Son, does not believe in Him”

G Kittel and G Friedrich:

“All the meanings of kosmos come together in the usage of the Fourth Gospel. Not just the Prologue uses kosmos for the world in the sense of the universe”

W E Vine:

“the human race, mankind”

A T Robertson:

The world (ton kosmon). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God's love appears also in 2Co 5:19; Rom 5:8”

M Vincent:

“The sum-total of humanity in the world; the human race”

John Calvin

"the whole human race...all men without exception"

This is what Robert Dabney, who was Refromed, says about κόσμος, in John 3:16

"In John iii.16, make 'the world' which Christ loved, to mean 'the elect world', and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish" (Systematic Theology, p.525)

Another Reformed commentary, by Jamieson. Fausset and Brown, on the use of "whole world" in 1 John 2:2, says,

"Also for the sins of the whole world. Christ's advocacy is limited to believers (1Jn_2:1; 1Jn_1:7): His propitiation extends as widely as sin: note, 2Pe_2:1, "the whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion (cf. 1Jn_4:14 and 1Jn_5:19). 'Thou, too, art part of the world: thine heart cannot think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me' (Luther)."

Word meanings and use must be determined by its context, and it is abundantly clear, even to Reformed teachers, that in John 3:16, κόσμος means the "entire human race", from Adam till the last person.

 

Well, I try to view the bible through God's attributes. One of them is immutability. Now, if He loves everybody with an everlasting love, then that means that it never ends. So then on the day of Judgment, He either changes His love to wrath or He loves them He tosses into hell.

Then in Psalms 5:5 it says He hates those who commit iniquity and in Proverbs 6:16-19 we see again that He hates the wicked. Then in Romans 9:13 it says He hated Esau. Then in Romans 9 we see the objects(vessels) of wrath and mercy. Those two are two entirely separate groups. One does not go from a vessel of wrath to mercy, as He chose the vessels of mercy from the same clump the vessels of wrath are in.

 

Does God loves those who He casts into hell?

 

Sorry, Sportzz fanzz, but most calvinism is false.

If all people were already predestinated, with no chance for change, then why have bBbles, preaching, or worship at all?

Now, while GOD knows who will be saved & who won't, WE don't know. And i doubt is anyone else, angels, etc. knows, either.

And remember, Jesus even gave Judas the chance to repent of his intended evil & be saved.

 

Firstly, God does NOT "toss", as you crudely put it, anyone into hell! Secondly, the word "hate" for Esau is not taken as "detest", but by comparison, as in "love less". Jesus says that we should "hate" our families if we wanted to follow Him. Do you think that He meant "loathe and detest", or, "love Me more", as He told John, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” (John 21:15). Psalm 106:40 is speaking about God's elect people, the Jews, "Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance". the Hebrew word "abhorred", is "תָּעַב", and means "to loathe, detest, abhor, an abomination". Whereas, when speaking of Esau in Malachi 1:3, God says, "שָׂנֵא", which is not as strong as "תָּעַב", and simply means "hate". Thirdly, Romans 9 is much misquoted by Reformers, who take words out of its context, and assume that it supports their theology. You speak of "vessels of wrath", but fail to see that it says that God is very "longsuffering" with these. "endured with much longsuffering" (verse 22). Why do you suppose this is? Could it be as we read in places like Ezekiel 18 and 33, that God wants them to "repent and believe", and get saved? Neither does it say anywhere in this chapter, that the "vessels or mercy" have been chosen before for salvation? Verse 18 is also much misquoted, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth", to show that God's mercy is "limited". Speaking of Jews and Gentiles, the two groups that make up the entire human race, Paul says, " For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all" (Romans 11:32), where it is clear that God's mercy does extend to the "entire human race".

 

Hate means to love less? Great! Now love does not mean love, but to hate less. We can 'splain away the whole bible this way.

 

Fear God who will destroy both soul and body...

 

Herein is your problem. I see NO Scripture that says God casts anyone into hell. John 3:18 says, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". It is because these DO NOT BELIEVE, that they are condemned. And, it is not that they cannot believe, as some suggest, but that they CHOOSE not to. Paul is very clear about this when witnessing to the Jews, "But speaking boldly, Paul and Barnabas said, It was necessary for the Word of God to be spoken first to you; but since you indeed thrust it away and judge yourselves not worthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the nations".(Acts 13:46) Two things should be noticed here. Firstly, That the Gospel was preached to these Jews, and they REJECTED it. Secondly, Paul says that the Jews, and NOT God, considered themselves unworthy of eternal life. In 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Paul says, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not (rejected) the love of the truth, that they might be saved". And, in verse 12, "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness". It is the CHOICE of the sinner!

 

You don't seem to understand either Hebrew or Greek, and seem to think that out English words and usage have always got it right! I noticed that you did not address Psalm 106:40, which is about God's elect?

 

Does God love those who end up in hell? I will answer this when you answer this question.

 

God's elect are His chosen ppl. But His chosen ppl are not solely the Jews. All through Romans Paul addresses this. The true Jews are those who have been circumcised in their hearts, by the Spirit of God, and not the circumcision of the foreskin.[Romans 2:28,29]

 

Most certainly He does, because He did NOT send them there, they CHOOSE to reject Jesus Christ, and a life that will end up in hell. Lay aside your Reformed theology and you will see much better, God, says the Bible, "is longsuffering towards you [scoffers and mockers], not willing that any [scoffers and mockers] should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)

 

How about the fact that Jesus tells Judas, that He was going to the cross to shed His blood for him? Judas, as we know, did not go to heaven, yet Jesus, Who fully knew this, still died for him! This is the extent of "God SO LOVES the human race", which Reformed/Calvinists find hard to accept, even though God says it!