Featured Is It Humbleness First & Grace Second?

Oh Willis, each one of those passages has a context. Shooting verses at each other without explaining the Hoy Spirit's intended meaning for the passage is not helpful, IMO. For instance, the 2 Timothy passages seemingly is talking about a brother or sister who are willingly opposing the truth as the elder is admonishing them to walk Godly according the the teachings of Scripture.

To speak generally, Of Course God "Grants repentance." This is His world and He allows what He wills. This is not something to build an argument for "grace before humility." Salvation is all of God--Justification, Sanctification, Glorification.

I know you believe in irresistible grace, do you believe in irresistible GROWTH? If not, why not?

 

I do not believe God ever fails.

 

Can a person fail to mature the way God intended them to?

 

Again, look at the context. In Acts 11, Peter retells the account at Cornelius' house, and that how those who heard the word, the Spirit came upon them and saved them. Up until that time, they Jews thought salvation was solely for the Jews. They then stated “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.” They knew it was God who granted them repentance.

In Acts 5, Peter testifies to the Sanhedrin that it was the Christ that the Jews had took and slain(rather it was the Romans at the Jews insistence) and God had raised Him from the dead. Peter then stated "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." It was after His resurrection that salvation was finished.

 

Right, so if He granted Repentance to Israel as a whole, then why did some not believe? See how illogical these arguments become, brother? Please stop with the mental gymnastics. Just take God at His Word. He calls all men everywhere to repent and believe the Gospel. One must humble themselves (a command throughout all of Scripture) and believe that God is who He says He is.

And I confess, as I read, study and preach through Ephesians, I better not do anything to disrupt the unity that God has established in His Church. So, I'd rather not try and "win", but I'd rather do my best to edify and encourage my brothers and sisters. This is really a stupid debate. Let us simply rejoice together that God saved us.

 

No, He did not grant Israel repentance as a whole. No more than He granted repentance to every Gentile whoever lived.

But the context is its God who grants repentance, not something fallen man drums up within himself.

 

I appreciate the post. I believe scripture teaches a universal principle that is easy to understand about how grace is released.

If a man/woman is responding with faith to what God has done in their life, that is grace.

If God is responding to what a man/woman has done in their life, that is works based salvation.

Peace to you

 

Everyone has their own verses they believe supports their position. I tend to believe that if a person can reconcile the verses of their opposition with their own verses, and in a way that is reasonable to the context of both sets of scripture, that person has a superior argument.

With that in view, Matt. 9:29, in context, is an account of a blind man asking for Jesus to restore his sight. It is not referring to someone asking for forgiveness of sins or salvation.

 

How about reconciling all of God's word with all of it ( Matthew 4:4 )?

From my experience, that is taking a long time.
Could it be that some of you are just not seeing the things that are actually there in His word, because you've not taken Him up on His commands ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ) much?

I know that the world and the troubles of this life often get in the way of me spending time with the Lord in His word, and Satan does a good job at trying to distract me endlessly.

I firmly believe that all of God's children could be better at this:

" Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 if so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious." ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 )

I stopped reading it in "verses" many years ago now, and it's taken that long to look at it like the book of letters that it really is.




May God be pleased to reveal Himself to you, through His word and through His gifts, more and more until you see Him.

 

Rockson,
Does not His own word give us the details about our very nature, before He changes it?

With respect, I see that you're putting the pieces together the wrong way.
Many believers clearly understand that man's "default condition" is dead in sin, because there are many Scriptures, and whole chapters, that "paint" it this way.

But for some reason, you don't see man as dead, spiritually before God...you only appear to see us as "wounded" and "sick", barely able to lift a finger to God.
While I see us, collectively, lifting THE finger to God.

You post this verse as ( I assume ) proof that man must humble himself before God can take him to the next step...do you realize who this verse is speaking to?

" Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. " ( 1 Peter 5:5-7 )

Believers, not unbelievers.

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." ( 1 Peter 1:1-5 )

The entire letter of 1 Peter is addressed to believers, not unbelievers..."Strangers" is the Biblical word for "Gentiles" as referenced in parts of the Old Testament, and the verses above detail them as being elect ( chosen ) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

He is telling them to humble themselves before their Father, so that He may exalt them in due time.

See also James 4:1-10.



In both passages, God is telling believers to humble themselves before God, and He will lift them up...not all of mankind.
It is a principle reserved for His children.

No man can or will humble himself before the God that he hates, unless God changes his desires.
That is what Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-17, and John 3:19-20, among many others, teaches.




To me ( as an analogy ), what you're suggesting is that a ship with a broken rudder fix itself, before its course can be changed.
Someone other than the ship has to fix the ship.


God bless you sir.

 

I have no question about what spiritual degree man is depraved ( de = thoroughly, praved = crooked, corrupt )...as to what physical degree, that differs considerably, IMO.
It's never been described by those who are called "Calvinists" as thoroughly immoral, outwardly.
It's always described in the Bible as spiritually corrupt...This is easily observed in society and manifests itself outwardly with varying degrees from ambivalence towards God, to outright hatred of Him when His name is mentioned.

We read in Romans 1:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: " ( Romans 1:18-20 )

Not ungodly cultures, but men in general. The passage is giving a history of the downfall of mankind into corruption, spiraling into spiritual darkness.
All men hold the truth in unrighteousness, not just ungodly cultures.

Americans, Brits, Germans, everyone who God does not intervene and change their natures, is under the same default condition.
I'm not sure why you classify it as "cultures", but in the words on the page, there in nothing there that says that.

There is no such thing as a godly culture, except one exclusively made up of believers in Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

Please list Scripture for that.

I disagree with the first underlined segment, and here is why:

" This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." ( Ephesians 4:17-19 )

That is spiritual death.
Spiritual death is a full blown turning of the back on God, and a turning of ones desires toward sin continually.

With regard to the second underlined, the answer has already been given above. A spirit which is in spiritual death is mentally unwilling to "hear" and respond to God favorably. Yes, they can physically hear, but they do not spiritually "hearken to".

See Romans 3:10-18.

I'm not just suggesting it, I'm stating it outright, but not the way you might think.
Men can show humility to other men, but before God, who sees the hearts and minds, there is not true humility towards Him unless He creates a new heart in him.

" Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." ( Psalms 51:10 )


As for Ahab, he did that which God commanded him under the Law, and God promised certain temporal, earthly blessings for those who obeyed it:

" If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." ( 2 Chronicles 7:14 )

This promise is given to the people of Israel, not to all men.
Notice that they have to already be called by His name...

In the earthly realm, those who were called by His name were Israelites who fell under the first covenant.
In the spiritual realm, no one is called by His name until they have believed on Him, and they fall under the second covenant...and there is nothing in the New Testament about humbling one's self as an unbeliever.

It is always in the context of being one of Christ's sheep.


To put it bluntly, there is a big difference between honoring God under the Law of Moses, which carried both earthly blessings and curses, and honoring God spiritually.



I hate to say it, Rockson, but your way makes God dependent upon man's response, and He is then locked into honoring His promise by what men do, or don't do. If a man can humble himself and gain God's favor by it, that violates Ephesians 2:9.



Sir, every approach to God is covered.
Every way that a man can conceivably think of to come to Him ( apart from him causing it, Psalms 65:4 ), is defeated by Romans 11:5-6 and Ephesians 2:8-10.


Think of it as a double lock...no man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him ( John 6:44 ) and no man can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ ( John 14:6 ) .
That is what Scripture teaches.

What does it accomplish?
It pulls the rug completely out from under man's efforts, and leaves him at the mercy of His grace.
There is then nothing that a saved person can base their salvation on, except His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:5 ).


Man cannot fool God into thinking that their hearts have has been changed, when God can see the hearts and minds. It's like trying to hide the chocolate-covered hand and lips from Mom when she asks if you've been in the cookie jar.

What's more is, God does not reward sinful men for their efforts at trying to purchase what is strictly a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).



If I haven't addressed this to you before, then I will now:

Eternal life is a gift, not a reward for good behavior, like "humbling one's self".
There are no "stepping stones" to gaining God's favor, because God is not a respecter of persons.


May God be pleased to show you great things, sir.

 

They knew God, but what they knew about Him they attributed it to idols. That's the context.