Atonement Theories

My question for the PSA people is: what exactly do you mean by "substitutionary"?

To substitute something means to put something else in its place and take away the thing being substituted. In this case (if I understand PSA correctly) Jesus in ours. i.e. Jesus dying so we don't have to.

But the nature of Jesus' death is the death of the flesh, not of the Spirit. If His death is to be substituted for ours, then we should expect that we would not see the death of the flesh, He having suffered it for us.

But we do undergo this death of the flesh. So either His death isn't substitutionary or it hasn't been applied to anyone so far.

(I remind the reader that the word "substitute" and its derivatives are not found in the Scripture.)

And you can't say that it will be applied substitutionally at the Resurrection, because he didn't stay dead, nor will he die at that time. It's not a matter of substitution at all, unless it's our life (not our death!) being replaced by His. We still have to die. That is not substituted at all.

But will we live?

Which brings us to the answer to the question "why did He shed His blood is not for PSA?"

Namely, "for the life of the world".




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It was His suffering that substituted for our suffering.

 

Not so, for we must also suffer with Him (Rom. 8:17; 1 Cor. 12:26; 2 Tim. 2:12; 1 Pet. 2:20, 21). This is not substitution.

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But our suffering with Christ does not pay the penalty for our sins. He suffered in our place. When He had finished paying that price in full, He said, "It is finished", and then He died.

Whatever was accomplished on the cross must include the fact of His suffering.

 

Also, the fact that we die doesn't mean His death didn't substitute for ours. Because we are in Christ, our death is turned into life at the ressurection.

 

And what is the penalty* for sin?

*[another word not found in the Scripture, btw]

 

Come and see!

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The wages of sin is death. Paul personifies "sin" as a slave master controlling the slave. The slave masters would often pay the slaves a small amount of money, which they could save and purchase their freedom. The "sin master" only pays with death, there is no way to buy your freedom from sin.

Therefore, the only way to be free from the sin master and death is through faith in Jesus.

 

Its not just that he died in our place, but that he took upon Himself the full wrath of God that has to be satsified to ender justification to us!

 

We do not suffer as he did though, as none of ours would be to pay off the din debt owed to God for breaking His law!

 

Physical death, spiritual seperation from God, and final judgement into hell...

 

Even thopugh its wrong theology?

 

Not the focus though,as the real focus is jsut how can Holy God have His wrath towards sin satidsfied and propiated,in order to be able to declare sinner not guilty anymore!

 

Yes, and we die. Ergo, we still pay the penalty. It is not substitution.

1) Physical Death.

See above re the wages of sin.

2) Spiritual Separation from God.

Jesus did not undergo this at any time. To assert such is rank heresy denying His divinity. Therefore, this is not a "substitution" situation either.

3) Final judgment into hell

Jesus is the Judge at the final judgment, not the judged. He says, "Depart from me." Not "Ok, I'm going there now so the rest of you can stay here." This is not a substitution, either.

It's not, "He ever dieth to make intercession for us", but "He ever liveth to make intercession for us." He is not made the Mediator of the New Testament by reason of an unending death, but by the power of an unending life. So again: not substitution at all.

The fact of the matter is that substitution has nothing to do with the atonement. Any "substitutionary atonement" theory (penal or otherwise) is just flat wrong.

Show me in the Scripture where the wrath of God has to be satisfied to render justification to us. Or where God's wrath has to be poured out once kindled. You won't find it there. In fact, you will find that God is quick to have compassion, and He doesn't need blood or death to turn His wrath away -- only humility and obedience.

The only question that comes up is this: Since the vast majority of people pre-Christ were not humble or obedient, how can God be righteous, having overlooked their sin for so long (winked at it), and not pouring out His wrath on them, choosing patience and forbearance instead?

If all this "wrath of God fully satisfied and propitiated on Jesus" business were actually Scriptural (it's not), there still remains this question: If He took upon Himself the full wrath of God, then why is there yet wrath to come? If the wrath of God was fully satisfied, where is the wrath of the Great Day of the Lord? Why is there any judgment into hell if God was satiated? Did not Christ die for all? Or did He only die for some? Is He the propitiation for our sins only? No, but also for the whole world. So His death and suffering can't be a "substitute" for the final judgment into Hell, because if it is then no one will go to Hell at all, but the Scripture clearly says some will.

Scripture does not say anything about the breaking of the law being a debt to God. Rather, the one who is under the Law is a debtor to the Law, to keep the whole thing.

And even if it is a debt to God, God is fully capable of declaring a debt forgiven of His own initiative, without some appeasement of pain and suffering. The servant simply had to ask his lord, "Have mercy on me, and I will pay you everything." And the lord forgave the debt. No pain, no suffering, no sacrifice.

The one who said, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner" -- he went home justified! Quite simple. Again, no pain, no suffering, no sacrifice. Just humility and asking.

They who say that Jesus paid our debt incurred by breaking the Law, and that by this payment we are justified, because (they assume) justification is a matter of keeping the Law perfectly, and He did that for us who could not -- those who say such things are Judaizers, because they are still saying that our justification is a matter of the Law being kept; they are quibbling over who did the keeping, but it's still justification by the works of the Law! To those who say such things Christ is become of no effect; they are fallen from grace.

Rather, by the grace of the Holy Spirit operating in our hearts through faith, we die with Him, for we are baptized into His death, and our bodies are made (with His) dead to the law. This death is still because of sin, and we must still undergo it! (Again we see that this is not substitution at all!)

We all have to die because of sin: however, there is only one place we can die and receive life in our death: that is, on the cross of Christ in the body of Christ the giver of life, because His blood flowing out from that body -- our body, that is, united with His -- carries away our sins with it.

Thus the sting of death, sin, is removed. The strength of sin, which is the Law, is ended not because "it hits Him and not us", but because in dying with Him we die to the Law, and the law of sin which works in our members dies as well, and we receive His Spirit by which we mortify and put to death the flesh with its law of sin warring it its members, if we walk in Him.

So His death is not a substitution for our own, but the place where our own becomes filled with His life (for the life of the flesh is in the blood), our sins washing away with/in His blood. His cross and suffering and death becomes a place of refuge for us to hide ourselves:

 

The one place "satisfaction" is mentioned in the Scripture with regard to God is Isaiah 53:

We should be careful not to read in what isn't there. It doesn't say why he shall be satisfied, or what particularly in him shall be satisfied. If it said what you say it says, it would say, "He shall see the travail of his soul, and his wrath shall be satisfied." But it doesn't say that. It just says, "and [he] shall be satisfied".

Could it be that He will be satisfied because by means of His death He will accomplish all the Father's will, namely the undoing of the works of the Devil, the plundering of Hades? By this act, the barren one who did not bear nor travail with child will break forth into singing and cry aloud, and more will be the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife!

God saw of His own labor and was satisfied on the sixth day, then rested the seventh.

What a great reversal! Instead of the lust of the enemy being satisfied upon the people of God, rather the people of God are redeemed by His right arm, pouring out His wrath upon the enemy, satisfying Himself out of this labor, and dashing him to pieces, and dividing the spoil Himself!

In what was the LORD pleased? In the pain of His servant? In the pouring out of His wrath unjustly upon Him... His own arm? His own Son?

Such blasphemy!

No, the very coming of the Holy One constitutes the beginning of the pouring out of the wrath of God upon His enemies and the enemies of His people: namely, sin, the devil, and the final enemy -- death itself!

The last enemy is death.

He was not satisfied by seeing the pain and suffering of His Son twisting in agony on the Cross. He was satisfied by seeing that by this labor and travail, ending in death, sin would be destroyed and death, the enemy of His people, would itself be slain by His life!

No atonement theory that has the Father taking some kind of sick pleasure in the pain and suffering and death of His own Son as punishment or payment for sins in itself (because He needs to see pain because He's been offended) -- for He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that he turn from his wickedness and live! -- is worthy of consideration by any lover of God and His Word.

 

Finally, I want to thank you all for this topic. In replying to it I've once again been reminded -- by having to go back and search the Scriptures yet again (great swaths of them) -- how unified and glorious God's work really is.