What does Reformed really mean?

[Brooksntea]

I've had a slight clue to what this means (see below), but upon looking for anything here about Vos, a person replied in a thread that he wasn't Reformed. So that had me thinking what exactly does the term Reformed mean? How can Baptists or anything else (Evangelical?) not agree with the past Puritans?

I've held the term Reformed to mean "going along" or "agreeing with" past Christian men like Luther, Calvin, Owen, Bunyan, Spurgeon (?) and others along that line. When I say agreeing I mean reading them and saying something like, "Wow, so nice to read someone put a truth like that down." You know the truths from reading God's Word, but when someone really nails a nice thing down, you can't help but get stirred up!

But then when another person of a like denomination (say Baptist) says they're not Reformed, does that mean they don't like the theological persuasions of the people listed above? Or is there something deeper than that? How can a Baptist or Evangelical or something similar not enjoy those listed?

Any help would be great!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Does .... OK, just what does Reformed mean to you specifically? can you tell me the difference between a Reformed Presbyterian and a Reformed Baptist for example?

 

[Covenanter]

Good question - Reformed is often used to imply Calvinist theology, but the ultimate irony is the UK "United Reformed Church" formed by the union of the English Presbyterian & Congregationalist churches.

Long ago most of the uniting churches ceased to hold evangelical or Reformed doctrines. The "union" of 2 denominations resulted in FOUR new denominations! The URC resulted in a smaller denomination than the Congregationals, who split into 3 denominations who "fought" for the Congregational library.

We were in fellowship with the Evangelical Congregationalists.

Locally, the Southall CC united with the Heston PC 3 miles away. Our FIEC church welcomed the CC members. The PC is taken over by Pentecostals, while the CC was sold, church & hall separately to Hindus & Sikhs.

 

[Covenanter]

To answer your question personally - I was brought up in the Church of England & in my teens went to a Bible class run by a Christian doctor. A local small free church called as Pastor one who had learnt much from Lloyd-Jones & James Packer who were indeed Reformed. Several of us went from the CofE to that church which was "Calvinistic Baptist" & had a branch of the "Evangelical Library" stocked with Puritan & Reformed books. That was 60 years ago. I even went to the "Puritan Conference" at Lloyd-Jones church - Westminster Chapel. At university (where I was reading chemistry) I was known in the Christian Union as "Ian the Calvinist."

My Reformed faith is as much from Reformed preachers as from my own reading, but I have rarely heard a "Calvinistic" sermon except in the early years at that church.

The 20th century drift from Calvinism was, I understand, caused by modern evangelism calling for decisions rather than repentance & faith, resulting in what amounted to unsaved Christians rather different from the unsaved Christians resulting from Reformed infant baptism into the state church.

I recemmend the book The Forgotten Spurgeon which discusses the controversies Spurgeon faced & involved himself in regarding the practical outworking of the Reformed faith.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I've had a slight clue to what this means (see below), but upon looking for anything here about Vos, a person replied in a thread that he wasn't Reformed. So that had me thinking what exactly does the term Reformed mean? How can Baptists or anything else (Evangelical?) not agree with the past Puritans?

I've held the term Reformed to mean "going along" or "agreeing with" past Christian men like Luther, Calvin, Owen, Bunyan, Spurgeon (?) and others along that line. When I say agreeing I mean reading them and saying something like, "Wow, so nice to read someone put a truth like that down." You know the truths from reading God's Word, but when someone really nails a nice thing down, you can't help but get stirred up!

But then when another person of a like denomination (say Baptist) says they're not Reformed, does that mean they don't like the theological persuasions of the people listed above? Or is there something deeper than that? How can a Baptist or Evangelical or something similar not enjoy those listed?

Any help would be great!

'"When I use a word," Humpty-Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, "It means just what I choose it to mean-- neither more not less."' [Lewis Carroll]
The term 'Reformed' means 'according to the Reformers' (excluding Luther who has his own denomination). That includes the continental reformers like Bucer, Beza and Bullinger as well as Calvin, the English Reformers like Cranmer and Latimer, as well as the Puritans who came afterwards. All these guys supported Particular Redemption (Calvinism).

What the term didn't include was the Anabaptists who were big on ecclesiology, but not very hot on theology, the followers of Arminius, or the more moderate English Protestants like Richard Hooker. Nor did it include the early Particular Baptists, even though their theology was very close to that of the Puritans, in whose eyes all Baptists were beyond the pale. Spurgeon, who was a great lover of the Puritans and whose theology was impeccably Reformed, never described himself as a Reformed Baptist and was never described as such by anyone else.

The term 'Reformed Baptist' is of very recent vintage, being coined around 1963 by Walt Chantry and Geoff Thomas when they, as Baptists, were studying at Westminster Seminary. Ten or so years ago, when I was on the Puritan Board, I was told that I wasn't really Reformed and could never be so because I was a Baptist. My reply was 'sez you!'

So what does 'Reformed' mean today? It should mean believing in Particular Redemption, being covenantal rather than dispensational (pace John MacArthur) and upholding the Reformed Principle of Worship (that what we do in church should have Biblical warrant).

 

[1689Dave]

I believe the Reformed think the Roman Catholic Church is the one true Church but it became apostate. And they set out to reform it. Thinking themselves to be it now.

 

[Reformed]

Historically, "Reformed" described the Westminster divines and subsequent subscribers to the Westminster Confession of Faith. Today the term has morphed to describe those who hold to the Five Solas of the Reformation. This doesn't sit well with some of our Presbyterian brethren who consider truly Reformed Christians to be practicing paedobaptists, as well as holding to Presbyterian covenant theology and Presbyterian Church polity. They refer to themselves as "Big R" Reformed or "truly Reformed". They even take some of their own to task for not being Reformed enough.

Baptists starting using the Reformed moniker in the 1960's. Reformed Baptist has more of a following in the United States. In the U.K. they are still known as Particular Baptists. Most Reformed Baptists are not only Calvinists, they subscribe to one of the major Baptist confessions like the 1644/46 London Baptist Confession or the 1689 Second London Baptist version. They also hold to a distinctive Baptist view of covenant theology. This is different from Calvinistic Baptists who still hold to dispensationalism and who are not necessarily confessional. In other words, Calvinism alone does not make a Reformed Baptist.

Hope this helps.

I've had a slight clue to what this means (see below), but upon looking for anything here about Vos, a person replied in a thread that he wasn't Reformed. So that had me thinking what exactly does the term Reformed mean? How can Baptists or anything else (Evangelical?) not agree with the past Puritans?

I've held the term Reformed to mean "going along" or "agreeing with" past Christian men like Luther, Calvin, Owen, Bunyan, Spurgeon (?) and others along that line. When I say agreeing I mean reading them and saying something like, "Wow, so nice to read someone put a truth like that down." You know the truths from reading God's Word, but when someone really nails a nice thing down, you can't help but get stirred up!

But then when another person of a like denomination (say Baptist) says they're not Reformed, does that mean they don't like the theological persuasions of the people listed above? Or is there something deeper than that? How can a Baptist or Evangelical or something similar not enjoy those listed?

Any help would be great!

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[atpollard]

I've had a slight clue to what this means (see below), but upon looking for anything here about Vos, a person replied in a thread that he wasn't Reformed. So that had me thinking what exactly does the term Reformed mean? How can Baptists or anything else (Evangelical?) not agree with the past Puritans?

I've held the term Reformed to mean "going along" or "agreeing with" past Christian men like Luther, Calvin, Owen, Bunyan, Spurgeon (?) and others along that line. When I say agreeing I mean reading them and saying something like, "Wow, so nice to read someone put a truth like that down." You know the truths from reading God's Word, but when someone really nails a nice thing down, you can't help but get stirred up!

But then when another person of a like denomination (say Baptist) says they're not Reformed, does that mean they don't like the theological persuasions of the people listed above? Or is there something deeper than that? How can a Baptist or Evangelical or something similar not enjoy those listed?

Any help would be great!

"Reformed" Theology (called "Particular" by Baptists) is roughly the same thing as "Calvinist" and refers to beliefs about HOW God saves people. At its core is the popular acronym T-U-L-I-P. The argument goes something like this:

Total depravity = every part of man (body, mind, emotions) was corrupted by the fall of Adam so people are completely incapable of responding to the Gospel in their own power.
Unconditional Election = Since no one can save themselves, God chose whom He would save for reasons that have NOTHING to do with us ... just because He did!
Limited Atonement = Jesus died for the sins of "his sheep" only. (The issue here is did the blood of Jesus actually forgive any sins. Limited atonement says that Jesus really forgave all of the sins that He died for, but Jesus did not die for the unforgiven sins.)
Irresistible Grace = When God draws you to Jesus, you will be saved. No one is "accidentally" saved or lost.
Perseverance of the saints = Those that God calls to forgiveness will not fall away but will finish the race and go to heaven.

"Arminian" Theology (called "General" by Baptists) is the opposite of Reformed. It has 5 points that mirror the 5 points of TULIP.

Partial Depravity = People were not rendered incapable of responding to the Gospel by the fall of Adam. A common analogy is that Arminians claim that people are sick and Calvinists claim that people are dead. The argument for Arminianism is usually based on "Free will".
Conditional Election = God chooses who to save for a reason. Typically because God knows who will eventually make the Free Will choice to believe the Gospel.
Unlimited Atonement = Jesus died on the cross for every sin of every single person. (There is still a limitation since not everyone is forgiven and destined for heaven, but Arminianism adds a requirement that the person must ACCEPT the forgiveness before it is applied to them.)
Resistible Grace = People have the ability to refuse the call of God to salvation.
No Perseverance = People can be saved and later fall away from God and loose their salvation. (Note that some Arminians have adopted Perseverance of the Saints, but this list was based on Classic Arminianism and Classic Calvinism.)


In the end, it comes down to a small, but important, difference of opinion. Do people choose to believe the Gospel and then God changes their heart, or does God first change their heart so that they are then able to believe the Gospel?

Particular Baptists (Reformed/Calvinist) place all of the power in the hands of God.
General Baptists (Arminians) place the power of choice in the Free Will of mankind.

 

[Mikey]

Pretty much agree with what Reformed said above. Presbyterians (not necessarily all of them) don't like others using the Reformed name.

Some people use Reformed to mean Calvinist. and Calvinist as in Soteriology ie holding to TULIP. I personally don't like this. For me Calvinist means that they hold to Calvin's Soteriology, Reformed would also be Calvinistic but would hold to Covenant Theology and agree mostly with of what is stated within the historic confessions (LBCF,WCF,Savoy)

I don't mind people using Reformed Baptist but I personally don't.

 

[Yeshua1]

I've had a slight clue to what this means (see below), but upon looking for anything here about Vos, a person replied in a thread that he wasn't Reformed. So that had me thinking what exactly does the term Reformed mean? How can Baptists or anything else (Evangelical?) not agree with the past Puritans?

I've held the term Reformed to mean "going along" or "agreeing with" past Christian men like Luther, Calvin, Owen, Bunyan, Spurgeon (?) and others along that line. When I say agreeing I mean reading them and saying something like, "Wow, so nice to read someone put a truth like that down." You know the truths from reading God's Word, but when someone really nails a nice thing down, you can't help but get stirred up!

But then when another person of a like denomination (say Baptist) says they're not Reformed, does that mean they don't like the theological persuasions of the people listed above? Or is there something deeper than that? How can a Baptist or Evangelical or something similar not enjoy those listed?

Any help would be great!

reformed in the traditional use of the term, refers to a Christian whose view on salvation would be TULIP, holds with entire Covenant theology, and Would use Confessions of the faith.
Some would be infant baptism, others believers, some govt by Congregation, others by Elders...

There are also many who would say they are reformed, but are really just calvinist, as in accepting TULIP, but not all of the rest!

 

[Yeshua1]

Historically, "Reformed" described the Westminster divines and subsequent subscribers to the Westminster Confession of Faith. Today the term has morphed to describe those who hold to the Five Solas of the Reformation. This doesn't sit well with some of our Presbyterian brethren who consider truly Reformed Christians to be practicing paedobaptists, as well as holding to Presbyterian covenant theology and Presbyterian Church polity. They refer to themselves as "Big R" Reformed or "truly Reformed". They even take some of their own to task for not being Reformed enough.

Baptists starting using the Reformed moniker in the 1960's. Reformed Baptist has more of a following in the United States. In the U.K. they are still known as Particular Baptists. Most Reformed Baptists are not only Calvinists, they subscribe to one of the major Baptist confessions like the 1644/46 London Baptist Confession or the 1689 Second London Baptist version. They also hold to a distinctive Baptist view of covenant theology. This is different from Calvinistic Baptists who still hold to dispensationalism and who are not necessarily confessional. In other words, Calvinism alone does not make a Reformed Baptist.

Hope this helps.

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Glad that you described the difference between calvinists and reformed, as there would be many Calvinist Baptist, but nearly as many reformed ones!

 

[Yeshua1]

Pretty much agree with what Reformed said above. Presbyterians (not necessarily all of them) don't like others using the Reformed name.

Some people use Reformed to mean Calvinist. and Calvinist as in Soteriology ie holding to TULIP. I personally don't like this. For me Calvinist means that they hold to Calvin's Soteriology, Reformed would also be Calvinistic but would hold to Covenant Theology and agree mostly with of what is stated within the historic confessions (LBCF,WCF,Savoy)

I don't mind people using Reformed Baptist but I personally don't.

The "real" reformed would be Presby,a s they would be upholding the full viewpoints of Calvin and Beza and others of the time...
There are indeed significant differences between them us we Reformed baptistson the Covenant itself, so makes for interesting discussions.
Almost like there are 2 Coveant btaches off main tree...

 

[Reformed]

Glad that you described the difference between calvinists and reformed, as there would be many Calvinist Baptist, but nearly as many reformed ones!

Another way of describing it is "Covenantal Baptist". That is the camp I fall into. I am not a dispensationalist and I hold to Baptist covenant theology.

 

[Yeshua1]

Another way of describing it is "Covenantal Baptist". That is the camp I fall into. I am not a dispensationalist and I hold to Baptist covenant theology.

Since my migration to Calvinistic/Reformed baptist understandings, would say a big surprise has been seeing that there are some Covenant premils, as just assumed all were A Mils!

 

[Brooksntea]

Does .... OK, just what does Reformed mean to you specifically? can you tell me the difference between a Reformed Presbyterian and a Reformed Baptist for example?

I don’t know enough about denominations to explain the difference between those two but Martin and Reformed gave pretty good answers to what was in my mind.

I think I gave my answer to your question in my first post.

I also go along with the 5 solas that was listed above.

Thank you everyone This has been a big help!

 

[Yeshua1]

I don’t know enough about denominations to explain the difference between those two but Martin and Reformed gave pretty good answers to what was in my mind.

I think I gave my answer to your question in my first post.

I also go along with the 5 solas that was listed above.

Thank you everyone This has been a big help!

If you hold to the TULIP alone, would be Calvinist
Add to that Covenant theology and Confession, would be Reformed!

 

[1689Dave]

I still believe the Lutherans and Reformed see themselves as the Roman Catholic Church cleaned up. If I'm wrong please correct me.

 

[InTheLight]

I still believe the Lutherans and Reformed see themselves as the Roman Catholic Church cleaned up. If I'm wrong please correct me.

Nobody has time enough in a day to constantly do this!


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[1689Dave]

Nobody has time enough in a day to constantly do this!


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What if they think they are the one true church? Where does that leave you in their estimation?

 

[Yeshua1]

I still believe the Lutherans and Reformed see themselves as the Roman Catholic Church cleaned up. If I'm wrong please correct me.

nope, just see themselves as being restored to what the Bible states...