Two Disparate Rule Books

And here's the thing...some of these parents may have told their young child sorry but I'm not sure if God does love you. What a sad, sad thing to put in a child. So a child grows up potentially believing they're of little worth. If God isn't forthcoming enough to tell me he loves me then it's probably a sign he doesn't. Why would he be so indifferent not to share that with me when its the most important thing to my existence?

This actually gives me a flashback of something that I experienced in the early 70's. I was in a High School Christian fellowship group and we'd meet every morning for a study and prayer. One day we were to draw on a paper an image of how we thought about God and his kingdom. I recall what one young teenager drew (who came from a Calvisit/Reformed background) She drew a person on the the earth looking up into the clouds and on the face of this one was a look of depression and fright. The person was looking up to a cloud which covered God with a big question mark on it. So a person who's afraid looking a big question mark in the sky representing God. It dawns on me now...perhaps her parents told her they're not sure if God loves her. What a sad, sad thing.

Take heed that you despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven. Matt 18:10

 

Or you shouldn't really have to have everything spelled out for you to understand a God who has basic justice of right and wrong, which I might add he's put into the consciousness of every man at birth would know such could not be possible...that children wouldn't make heaven their home.

 

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this corrupt generation. Acts 2:40

 

Well Dave if we're going to have any meaningful discussions here the forum is about Calvinism vs Arminianism. I think we all get that everybody here may not agree with everything from whatever BUT the basic thought is....you're a Calvinist as I am Arminian.

You miss the point though Dave. If a person is convinced that God probably doesn't love them because of Calvinistic doctrines which takes away God's universal decree of LOVE then the only hope they have might be to think they can fight against God at the Battle of Armageddon. Plus they might think if God is so ungracious that people are hell bound merely because of their birth then it probably is God is not good at all. If he's not good at all then who is Jesus to declare Satan is a liar. If God is not good they conclude that means he might be lying rather than the devil. Such is why they might believe the Warlock's message.

 

This will be a long post.
Apologies in advance.


I didn't miss the point, Rockson...I think that you're missing something in the mix:
There is no "universal decree of love".

There is a universal decree of sin, death, Hell and Judgment ( Acts of the Apostles 2:22-40, Acts of the Apostles 13:26-41, Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31 ).
Unlike most of today's so-called "preachers", the apostles never preached the love of God to a mass audience of unbelievers. They never layered their Gospel presentations with any promises of the love of God. They preached Christ crucified, and all who believe on Him should have remission ( forgiveness ) of sins.

Please see the book of Acts.

The Gospel ( and by extension all of God's word ) isn't something that needs "marketing", it should be proclaimed in its entirety.
Christ's sheep "hear" His voice ( John 10:27 ), He that is "of God" "hears" His words ( John 8:47 ). They unerringly hearken to His words, because they are the truth and they come from their Saviour, not because they are attractive nor unattractive.

His church isn't "seeker sensitive", it's "truth sensitive".
God's people love His words because they resonate with their regenerate hearts and minds, and because the Spirit in them bears witness to those words being the truth...not because they necessarily "like" them.

Therefore, if "Calvinism" is the truth ( and I believe that what is contained in the so-called "Five Points of Calvinism" is a summary of some of it ), then no amount of sugar-coating it is ever going to make it palatable... and it will result in the truth being hidden in an effort to make it "more attractive", which is disingenuous and deceitful, from a truth standpoint.


Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

In John 6:22-58, Jesus relates the principle of His body and blood.
He tells the Jews in the crowd:

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." ( John 6:53-58 )

They then respond:

" Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?" ( John 6:60 )

Jesus then tells them:

" When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life." ( John 6:61-63 )

The words He was speaking to them were spiritual, not carnal. They were meant for the spiritual mind, not the carnal mind.
In other words, they were meant for someone whose heart and mind had been changed by God.



According to the Bible, in order for someone to truly understand the Scriptures, a person must have their understanding "opened" to them by God...otherwise, the Scriptures will simply "bounce off" ( I've literally seen this in action by quoting Scripture to people at work, and they don't "hear" them. ).

Jesus did this for His disciples after He rose again:

" Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures," ( Luke 24:45 )

He did the same for Lydia:

" And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 )

Because of this necessity, all true believers in Jesus Christ have the mind of Christ granted to them by God's Spirit ( Romans 8:5-9, 1 Corinthians 2:12-16 ), while those that do not, will never come to an understanding of His words. But even before Jesus opened the disciples understanding ( after He rose again ), they still knew in their hearts that the words that He spoke were truth...even though they did not understand them right away.

Before He rose again, Jesus had to explain the parables to them because they hadn't had their minds opened yet.
But He still told them, when asked:

" And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." ( Matthew 13:10-11 )



With this miracle clearly in mind, we come back to John 6 and see Jesus identifying why many of the Jews, even most of the ones who had been following Him up until this point, reject His words about the body and blood:

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 )

They could not trust and believe on Him, because it was not given to them by the Father to come to Him in belief.

Then we see this:

" From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." ( John 6:66-69 )

They recognize that the words come from Jesus ( the Way, the Truth and the Life ) and that because He is who He is, they can trust them to be the truth.
As I see it, their willingness was there, even though they really didn't understand yet.


My point?

This isn't meant as a personal jab at you, but I feel that it needs stating anyway:

From my perspective, God's children do not need the truth "soft-soaped"...they swallow hard and accept it ( all of it ), because it comes from God, their Saviour, even if they find it hard to understand ( 2 Peter 3:16 ).

With respect ( and I don't mean to offend you, personally ), if you don't think that "Calvinism" is the truth, then that is your prerogative...But given that it constitutes the single, most offensive set of doctrines among those who profess Christ as Saviour in the entire history of the church, was cursed at the Council of Trent in 1563, and is still maligned and fought against fiercely by so many so widely today, I would have to ask myself the question:

"If most of professing Christianity hates it, where does that leave me?".



Rockson,

We who are "Calvinists" don't believe them because they are "believable" to the average person...We know that they are not popular and that they don't fill auditoriums and stadiums during "crusades", with seekers.

We believe them because we actually see them in Scripture, and we know that they are the truths of God.




This is my final post to you in this thread, sir.
May God comfort you in all your trials, and may He bless you richly in your studies of His word.

 

I just thank the Lord that he predestined me to be a non-Cal.

Another thing to be thankful for!



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

[/b]

 

I appreciate your comments, sir, and I wish you well.

 

Well that's OK friend Dave I'll shorten it. Or what I mean is I'll give a short response.

Sure Dave I know you're not that way. Some do but not you.

Well I guess I don't understand your statement. What do you mean where does that leave you?

I don't doubt you sincerely believe that. I just question the validity of it being true however.

 

I realize that, and while I have no wish to offend anyone by pigeon-holing their doctrines or attacking them personally, for want of a better convenience it does break down according to "isms"... at least for reference purposes.
To me, the "debate" has been ongoing for a long time:

"Pelagianism" ( 418, Councils of Carthage ),
"Semi-Pelagianism" ( Second Council of Orange, 529 ),
The Reformation beginnings with its corresponding replies by the Catholic Church in the Canons of Trent, 1563 and its codification of "Molinism",
The Belgic Confession of 1561 with its corresponding replies of "Arminianism" ( "Five Articles of the Remonstrants" in 1610 ),
...which was in turn replied with "Calvinism" ( Synod of Dordrecht, 1619 )
...and finally to "Traditionalism / Arminianism"" with its corresponding reply of "Calvinism" for the past 400 years.

In all cases, the pre-eminent doctrines of either side can best be described as:

"Arminianism" / "Traditionalism" / "Molinism" / "Semi-Pelagianism" / "Pelagianism" = Man-centered, cooperative salvation that results in eternal life as a reward for performing an action or set of actions / meeting certain conditions.

"Calvinism" = God-centered, operative salvation that results in eternal life as a gift freely given by God, and freely received by the intended recipients. "Conditions" are in reality evidences that must be present in a child of the living God.

" Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 but rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy [are ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or [as] an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.
16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." ( 1 Peter 4:12-19 )




In this passage, I would have to disagree with the way you've used it, but only to say that in the context, it appears to me that Peter is speaking to believers regarding suffering for sins and for being a child of God.
Temporal judgment begins at the house of God, and we are to police our own for the sins that believers fall into ( 1 Corinthians 5:6-13 ), thanking God that we are not condemned with the world.

Take a look again, and see what you think.



May God bless you sir.

 

To clarify,
I meant, If I were Rockson, "where would that leave me?".

 

That’s kind of funny, because I noticed those groups back then, hanging around the flag pole, saw an occasional flyer from them, always kind of wondered what they did and talked about. I heard people saying things about them, accuse them of doing the same things they judge others on, call them “Jesus Freaks” and such. I didn’t have anything against them but thought they were kind of weird and wouldn’t dare be seen with them, LOL. Anyway, just caused me to have a flashback about my curiosity about that group. I was 35 years old before I sincerely responded to that curiosity, that calling, which by then had become my only hope - and our loving God welcomed me with open arms.

Here is a positive side of recognizing this sad situation, I have ran into many people that speak in Deterministic terms about God and that are unbelievers or more typically of the Agnostic variety. Sometimes it is obvious or even established that they’ve gotten their information confirmed from Christians of whom I doubt really have much knowledge of soteriology but are merely repeating Deterministic phrases that make their way through the church.

When I hear people express their doubts of their ability to know God, to have a relationship with Him or be chosen to be loved by God, I assure them that the truth is that God wants that relationship with them. I take advantage of the situation of those who have been led to believe that their fate is negatively predestined and take the opportunity to Biblically make my case as to why God created them to have the attributes that they do and how His love would not serve its purpose of His creational design if His love and their reciprocal love was forced upon them. People discouraged by Deterministic views creates an opportunity for me and has become sort of a ministry. I often start by taking people back to Genesis and talk of the divinely designed nature of humans after finding out if they’ve heard of and considered John 3:16.

I’ve found planting the seeds of genuine hope for all people to be needed and quite effective. I know some have gone on to be saved and I suspect others have seriously reconsidered their paths and thinking.

I sometimes wonder if perhaps God providentially arranged for me to be introduced to Calvinistic doctrines the way I was to mold me, give me the drive to study hard and prepare me to reach people who have lost hope because of what they have heard and been led to believe. To me, it is one thing to spar over soteriology on a forum to brush up on the skills a little but quite another when I actually meet a lost person in need of genuine hope in the Good News – In person I have no qualms about taking the gloves off and dealing some serious blows about what I think about Deterministic views that have diminished their hope and discouraged these people from seeking God.

It has been quite rewarding at times. People have said they have never had that explained to them in their whole life and that it makes sense, their eyes get big, smiles come to their face, even tears in their eyes and quite a few times I’ve been asked if I am a Pastor, I say no, I just believe and study the Bible a lot, God’s Word, His letter to us, and with a wink and a grin I say and just like He promises it makes me wise like this. LOL.

 

Just a question off the top, Benjamin...
Do you ever just share the word of God with them, and see how they respond to it alone?

I mean, most people I know respond well to a God that loves them and has a wonderful plan for their lives, but very few respond to a God that condemns them for their sins and is going to throw them into eternal Hell fire unless they repent and believe on His Son for the forgiveness of those sins. Yes, I realize that Peter and Paul did not do any "fire and brimstone" preaching, and I'm not talking about that...

I'm talking about the fact that most church-goers seem to think that the God of the Old Testament is a different God than the one of the New. That, once a person gets into the Bible for themselves, they realize that there is something markedly different within the pages of Scripture than the Person they've been told about ( from the pulpit ) in most of what passes for Gospel presentations these days.

They read about Pharoah and the plagues of Egypt, Jericho and the other cities put to the sword, Sodom and Gomorrha, David and the Philistines, Elijah and the fire that came down from God and consumed the false prophets at the altar of Ba'al, and Elisha and the children who were mauled by a bear, for examples, and I imagine that they then start to ask, "who is this God you're talking about?"

How do you handle those questions, if I may ask?

I'm not sure why you seem to believe that God's word is His letter to mankind ( if that's what you are stating above )...

From my perspective and what I see in Scripture, it's His book of letters to His children ( Romans 4:23-25, Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 10:11 ), while the epistles are specifically written to those that have already believed and are in no way intended to be read and understood by mankind at-large.

Do you mean to say that the Bible can be understood by all men without the help of the Holy Spirit?



Finally,

I, too, desire the salvation of people...as many as will come to Christ as possible.
I, too, want to give hope to people who are hurting and in need of healing and who are seeking the true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I just cannot tell them that God loves them until after they've believed on Christ.



May God bless you richly, sir.

 

This right here nails it. One is man-centered, the other God-centered. One starts with man in regards to salvation, the other starts with God.

 

Sorry "P" I think you're dreaming in technicolor to say that.

Why because we believe God is more loving than you claim and more gracious? That's heinous?

So "P" you settle up on a God,who won't love and show mercy to others who are no more evil than them (you have claimed even Calvinist are totally and absolutely depraved like everybody else) and that makes sense? At least with my way (which I claim is God's way) everyone gets a fair chance. And what about God as being a judge? Just because a judge LOVES an individual that means he has a right to use his power to let them off? Isn't crime, crime and sin, sin regardless of who commits it? Or because a judge sends someone he LOVES to the penitentiary you would most foolishly claim he mustn't have LOVED him? How about God who is LOVE also has to be JUST but that's the thing you leave out of the equation. Isn't it like you're saying he'd be a monster to be JUST. And it's you who used the term monster and not I.

 

Dave, I share as many scriptures as I can without getting into "Bible-Speak" so heavily that I leave reason behind and lose my audience. God designed man to have sense, reason and intellect and said let us reason together. I plant the seeds as they are applicable and count on the Holy Spirit to work on them and to guide me to give the answers to every man that asks a "reason" for the hope that is in me which if one thinks about is for the purpose to to give them the "reasons" that they need to hear.

Every situation is different but I assure you that I am very confident that our approach differs from start to finish.

Well, Dave, I guess as I've mentioned to you earlier and referred to 1Cor 2 it has to do with my understanding of Progressive Revelation and how it relates to God's purpose in creation that involves His love for mankind from before the foundation of the world which in turn brought His "Word" (Jesus Christ) to shine this light into all the world. I am very aware of what you see in the scriptures (Determinism) and who you think they are for (the lucky pre-selected few), but my view gets quite a bit deeper than your Deterministic views but keep working on it and maybe it will come to you why I believe God's grace is meant to be more inclusive that those of your "persuasions".

What do you mean "without the "help" Dave? You aren't one of those Pelicans are you???

That's good Dave.

That's too bad Dave.

 

I can appreciate you have in you to want to honor GOD as everything, everything, everything...it sounds good I agree but it's still none the less is Biblical ignorance. Man has his part to play which is repent...once man does God does his part imparts the Spirit of Salvation. Repent and believe the gospel and you shall receive...it's not receive and then you 'll repent and believe.

The time is fulfilled,” He said, “and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe in the gospel!” Mk 1:16

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and [future tense]--> you will be saved, you and your household. Acts 16:32

So it's 1) REPENT....2) BELIEVE.....and 3) [future tense]--> you will be saved

It's not SAVED....REPENT....BELIEVE! Big, big, big difference.

 

...until they've actually believed on His Son.
You snipped it off.

Here's a passage about the love of God for His children:

" When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"( Matthew 25:31-34 )

Here's a passage about the love God has for those who are not His children:

" Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" ( Matthew 25:41 )

Question:
Why would the God of all Creation, Jesus Christ, without which nothing was made that was made, call someone He loves, cursed?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "( Matthew 7:21-23 )


Why would He tell people that He loves, that He never knew them?




This "loving God" scares the daylights out of me, and I call Him my Saviour.
None of you see the significance of Jesus telling people that He supposedly loves, that they are accursed and that He never knew them?

 

Calvinism: Election is the means to Christ.
NonCal: Christ is the means to Election.

Richard Coords - "The criticism against Calvinistic Election is that it represents a severe demotion of Christ:

Arminius explains: “This doctrine is highly dishonorable to Jesus Christ our Savior. ... It denies that Christ is the meritorious cause who again obtained for us the salvation we had lost, by placing him only as a subordinate cause of that salvation which had been already foreordained, and thus only a minister and instrument to apply that salvation unto us.” (Arminius Speaks, p.47, emphasis mine)"

 

What about the New Covenant changed it?