The Jesuit Origins of Futurism

[1689Dave]

Sorry, but you leave the impression that you cannot answer any questions, especially about Scripture, the highest court of appeal. Or the impression that the world is through the looking glass with you and you imperially decline questions.

I delight in answering questions about scripture. And don't recall ever dodging those. But why is it wrong to answer a question with a question? Why not give the answer first? and let the others question?

 

[1689Dave]

This is from a Reformed Baptist ministry concerning the history of "Futurism".

 

[TCassidy]

Do you follow Jesus?

Don't question my salvation because I disagree with you. It will not end well.

He knew how to alleviate tension by turning claims into self evident questions.

Yes, again, He is Omniscient, you are not.

I use this technique to avoid accusing people.

Because that will get you banned?

I can say this or that about others, but I might be wrong.

Might be?

A simple question leaves it open for others to decide.

Others decide you can't answer the questions?

And don't recall ever dodging those.

Other than every time?

But why is it wrong to answer a question with a question?

Because it proves you can't answer a question?

This is from a Reformed Baptist ministry concerning the history of "Futurism".

Another idiot heard from who can't read what is obvious to everyone who can.

 

[TCassidy]

I'm providing documented history behind some of today's most popular beliefs.

No, you are not. You are posting that which has already been refuted.
Here it is again.

"The Jesuit Origins of Futurism" is a lie told by Preterists who try to divert attention away from the FACT that the Jesuits were founded in 1534, almost 1500 years after the ECF published their belief if Historic Chiliasm.

In fact most competent theologians recognize the origin of Chiliasm to have its roots in ancient Judiasm.

Charles Hodge wrote “It is a Jewish doctrine. The principles adopted by its advocates in the interpretation of prophecy are the same as have been adopted by the Jews in the time of Christ; and have led substantially to the same conclusions. The Jews expected that when the Messiah came He would establish a glorious earthly kingdom at Jerusalem; that those who had died in the faith should be raised from the dead to share the Messianic reign; that all nations and peoples on the face of the earth should be subject to them; and that any nation that would not serve them should be destroyed. All the riches and honors of the world were to be at their disposal.” Hodge Systematic Theology - Eschatology.

Because of their expectation of an earthly Kingdom the Jews, as recorded in John Chapter 6, were ready to take Jesus and make Him King by force!

Corinthes, a contemporary of the Apostle John, taught that Christ would have an earthly Kingdom lasting a thousand years with His throne in Jerusalem. Papias (second century) taught the same thing. So did Justin Martyr (about 150 A.D.) who taught that the most Christians in his time were looking forward to an earthly kingdom.

So, it is proved conclusively from the bible and from history that the claim that futurism, IE Premillennialism, originated with the Jesuits is patently false.

 

[1689Dave]

No, you are not. You are posting that which has already been refuted.
Here it is again.

You are confusing Premillennialism with Dispensationalism. They are vastly different.

 

[1689Dave]

Don't question my salvation because I disagree with you. It will not end well.

Yes, again, He is Omniscient, you are not.

Because that will get you banned?

Might be?

Others decide you can't answer the questions?

Other than every time?

Because it proves you can't answer a question?

Another idiot heard from who can't read what is obvious to everyone who can.

I don't question your salvation. I'm asking if you practice the techniques Jesus taught us in dealing with people? Nothing more.

 

[TCassidy]

I realize this.

Then why keep denying it?

But futurism goes beyond Premillennialism (Chiliasm).

Only in your mind.

The futurists turn Jesus into Antichrist (Daniel 9:27).

That is a falsehood.

Deny Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in the middle of the 70th week on the cross.

Sez who?

And then stuff "the gap" like a pita with a revived Roman Empire, rebuilt temple, animal sacrifices (Contrary to Hebrews), a pre-trib rapture and a lot more serious errors.

Wrong again.

All of Jesuit origins.

More poisoning the well with absolutely no evidence.

But I trust you will see the differences between Futurism Larkin (Dispensational) style, and historic premillennialism.

You call Larkin Dispensationalism "Futurism" while conflating Dispensationalism and Chiliasm.

You are confusing Premillennialism with Dispensationalism.

No, you are failing to see the distinction and that Premillennialism is, by definition, futurism.

You are confusing Premillennialism with Dispensationalism. They are vastly different.

You are conflating the two.

Once again you come onto the forum pontificating about a subject you know nothing about then refuse to respond to detailed refutations and get all flustered when somebody with much more knowledge than you disagrees with you.

 

[1689Dave]

Then why keep denying it?

Only in your mind.

That is a falsehood.

Sez who?

Wrong again.

More poisoning the well with absolutely no evidence.

You call Larkin Dispensationalism "Futurism" while conflating Dispensationalism and Chiliasm.

No, you are failing to see the distinction and that Premillennialism is, by definition, futurism.

You are conflating the two.

Once again you come onto the forum pontificating about a subject you know nothing about then refuse to respond to detailed refutations and get all flustered when somebody with much more knowledge than you disagrees with you.

I posted 3 well accepted sources who show the history of the Jesuit's Futurism. And there is far more than this. We are either palling around with the Jesuits in our end time beliefs or we are not.

 

[church mouse guy]

I posted 3 well accepted sources who show the history of the Jesuit's Futurism. And there is far more than this. We are either palling around with the Jesuits in our end time beliefs or we are not.

There are a million different theologies and you can find several books on all the different schools of theology but Scripture sorts them all out.

The Holy Bible is Perfect.

We must choose God's word over Man's word.

 

[1689Dave]

There are a million different theologies and you can find several books on all the different schools of theology but Scripture sorts them all out.

The Holy Bible is Perfect.

We must choose God's word over Man's word.

We all strive to do this. But it helps to question where our beliefs came from. What happened in my case after defining the kingdom of God according to Jesus in the gospels, I made Revelation conform to his description of the kingdom. It is not of this world. It comes without observation. You must be born again to see it. It is within you, etc. So if we move beyond this and make it physical, we add to Revelation.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1:45 PM Pacific.

 

[TCassidy]

I posted 3 well accepted sources who show the history of the Jesuit's Futurism. And there is far more than this. We are either palling around with the Jesuits in our end time beliefs or we are not.

One more time. To try to equate futurism with the Jesuits is simply false. Futurism dates to well before Christ by many Jews, and the attempt to install Christ by force on the throne is proof they looked toward a future kingdom with Christ on the throne of David. To try to equate futurism with Jesuits is simply dishonest.

 

[1689Dave]

One more time. To try to equate futurism with the Jesuits is simply false. Futurism dates to well before Christ by many Jews, and the attempt to install Christ by force on the throne is proof they looked toward a future kingdom with Christ on the throne of David. To try to equate futurism with Jesuits is simply dishonest.

Thanks for sharing your insights. But Futurism defined by Larkin, Phillip Schaff, and Wick Broomall is not the same as Chiliasm. So we are discussing it according to their definition, not yours. You can call them liars but history confirms what they say is true. The Reformed Baptist history video I posted also confirms this.

 

[Yeshua1]

There is no millennium with a return to animal sacrifices. Plagued with sin and death and carnal delights based on legalistic obedience to law.

Jesus reigns now (God rules the universe. Jesus is God). And when he returns he resurrects or raptures us into the new heavens and earth.

The Messianic Age of jesus here upon Earth will NOT have sin, death, carnal delights, as he willrule all with the rod of iron.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks Tom. I realize this. But futurism goes beyond Premillennialism (Chiliasm). The futurists turn Jesus into Antichrist (Daniel 9:27). Deny Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in the middle of the 70th week on the cross. And then stuff "the gap" like a pita with a revived Roman Empire, rebuilt temple, animal sacrifices (Contrary to Hebrews), a pre-trib rapture and a lot more serious errors. All of Jesuit origins.

We are all futurists in a sense, looking for Christ's return. But I trust you will see the differences between Futurism Larkin (Dispensational) style, and historic premillennialism. Wick Broomall spelled it out clearly. Worth copying and pasting to your notes.

It would really help if you wouldjust admit that the view of premil was the primary one in Church age untilAugustine, and that what you arerailing against is Dispy version of it.

 

[1689Dave]

The Messianic Age of jesus here upon Earth will NOT have sin, death, carnal delights, as he willrule all with the rod of iron.

The "millennium" has sin and death according to Isaiah. “There shall be no more thence an infant of days, Nor an old man that hath not filled his days: For the child shall die an hundred years old; But the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.” (Isaiah 65:20)

But this is happening now in real-time. When Jesus returns, the universe explodes and we enter the New Heavens and Earth where we enjoy God's glory forever.

“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” (Acts 1:6–7)

The single event which none but the Father knows the time of is the resurrection on the last day. And if we consider believers in Christ as biblical Israel, the resurrection speaks of Israel’s restoration into the New Heavens and earth.

Acts also places this on the last day.

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19–21)

And making sure this refers to the last day and end of the world, Matthew says;

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:35–36)

So while many look for a physical 1000 yearlong kingdom in this evil world, God’s restoration of Israel speaks of the new heavens and earth coming about on the last day when as Peter says;

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)

 

[Yeshua1]

Sorry, but you leave the impression that you cannot answer any questions, especially about Scripture, the highest court of appeal. Or the impression that the world is through the looking glass with you and you imperially decline questions.

he gives off to me the impression that he is more spiritual enlightened than many of us here posting...

 

[1689Dave]

It would really help if you wouldjust admit that the view of premil was the primary one in Church age untilAugustine, and that what you arerailing against is Dispy version of it.

Jesus taught Amillennialism directly when he said his kingdom is not of this world. And that it did not come with observation. Augustine helped refine what we now call Calvinism even though Paul taught it directly in Romans. So we see developments in the Trinity, Deity of Christ, Total Depravity and Amillennialism as they replaced the Jewish ideas drawn from a flawed understanding of the OT.

 

[1689Dave]

he gives off to me the impression that he is more spiritual enlightened than many of us here posting...

“.... for me, it is a minor matter that I am judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.” (1 Corinthians 4:2–3)

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus taught Amillennialism directly when he said his kingdom is not of this world. And that it did not come with observation. Augustine helped refine what we now call Calvinism even though Paul taught it directly in Romans. So we see developments in the Trinity, Deity of Christ, Total Depravity and Amillennialism as they replaced the Jewish ideas drawn from a flawed understanding of the OT.

You would agree that the main view nefore that was premil?