You have got to be kidding! Where did you study Greek? Joe's bar and Geek School?
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"that which is perfect..." 1 Cor. 13:10
- Thread starter JonShaff
- Start date
Yes, Joe's Bar and Greek school. τὸ τέλειον --So, help me out then--instead of making fun of me--the Article "τὸ" refers to "That which" and the adjective is τέλειον--"perfect". What is "that" and what is "perfect"?
Context should help us out...Paul said...
We know in part
We prophesy in part
And that which is in part will be done away
So, when Scripture came, "knowing in part" (even the part) would not be "Done away", it would be confirmed, supported. "Prophesying" wouldn't be "done away", we would continue to "preach the Word."
Going back to the Greek--the noun that is neuter is "μέρους"--Part. So that which is in "part" will become "perfect/complete" --τέλειον?
So then, what is in part?
vs. 12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
When shall we "know more fully?" When we see Christ in our glorified state, complete at last? Not referring to Christ as that which is "complete", but our Sanctification/Glorification.
Bottom line..."Perfect" τέλειον is an Adjective--what is it Describing?
Knowledge--Feminine
Prophecy--Feminine
Tongues--Feminine
We know in part
We prophesy in part
And that which is in part will be done away
So, when Scripture came, "knowing in part" (even the part) would not be "Done away", it would be confirmed, supported. "Prophesying" wouldn't be "done away", we would continue to "preach the Word."
Going back to the Greek--the noun that is neuter is "μέρους"--Part. So that which is in "part" will become "perfect/complete" --τέλειον?
So then, what is in part?
vs. 12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
When shall we "know more fully?" When we see Christ in our glorified state, complete at last? Not referring to Christ as that which is "complete", but our Sanctification/Glorification.
Bottom line..."Perfect" τέλειον is an Adjective--what is it Describing?
Knowledge--Feminine
Prophecy--Feminine
Tongues--Feminine
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Here's how i look at the context...
The Corinthians were zealous about "Spiritual Gifts" and Paul was "Ok" with that. He wanted them to understand the greater picture, however. Gifts will not last into eternity, but LOVE WILL. Be more zealous about loving each other, for that is the intended purpose of the gift--that each would build each other up in Love. The Gifts are not an end in themselves, Love is. There will be no need for gifts in eternity, our sanctification will be complete. We will be Glorified. But love will continue on Forever--because Love is the Full Revelation of God himself. We will finally Know and be known in Light of the fullness of God's Love.
The Corinthians were zealous about "Spiritual Gifts" and Paul was "Ok" with that. He wanted them to understand the greater picture, however. Gifts will not last into eternity, but LOVE WILL. Be more zealous about loving each other, for that is the intended purpose of the gift--that each would build each other up in Love. The Gifts are not an end in themselves, Love is. There will be no need for gifts in eternity, our sanctification will be complete. We will be Glorified. But love will continue on Forever--because Love is the Full Revelation of God himself. We will finally Know and be known in Light of the fullness of God's Love.
Paul is expressing a principle (when the perfect comes that which is in part ceases) pointing to the superiority of love (which never fails).
Paul is not talking about the canon, or the gift of tongues or prophesy. Paul is not talking about "sign gifts". Paul is talking about love.
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Some scripture that came to mind as I was reading these.
Matthew 16:4 KJVS
[4] A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Matthew 12:39-40 KJVS
[39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: [40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
1 Corinthians 1:21-25 KJVS
[21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. [22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: [23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; [24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. [25] Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Matthew 16:4 KJVS
[4] A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Matthew 12:39-40 KJVS
[39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: [40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
1 Corinthians 1:21-25 KJVS
[21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. [22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: [23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; [24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. [25] Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Yes, it's obvious that Paul is talking about love. That is probably why the chapter is called "The Love Chapter."
But Paul CANNOT be referring to "love" when he says "when the complete comes the partial will be done away."
Love (αγαπη) is a feminine noun and does not agree in case, number, and gender with "partial" (μερους) which is a neuter noun, as is "complete" (τελειον) a neuter adjective.
Context is your friend. All of chapter 12 is about spiritual gifts and their misuse by the church at Corinth.
He tells them to lay aside the things of childhood and become mature believers. Their favorite toys will go away, and only faith, hope, and love will remain. And the best of the three is love (verse 13), which sacrifices self for the service of others, unlike their abuse of the spiritual gifts to brag to others about how gifted their were.
And he tells them in 12:31 "I want you to desire the best gifts. So I will show you a much better way." Then all of chapter 13 is the "much better way." Better than the gifts the Corinthians had been bragging about and abusing, which would soon pass away.
Paul is talking about love by pointing out the incomplete nature of the things he lists (the sign gifts the Corinthians were bragging about). Those things are temporary and will be put away (like an adult puts away things of a child). He is speaking of love's superiority because love is not temporary (like those incomplete things which will end).
Yeah, that's what I said. But the point remains, the sign/confirmatory gifts ended.
Regardless to the validity of your conclusions concerning sign/confirmatory gifts (whether they have ended) your point has absolutely nothing to do with the passage in question. Paul is not pointing to an end of these gifts but to their temporary nature and this to expound on love.
Good grief, Jon! Grab a dictionary and look up "temporary." It means "gonna end." Paul establishes the FACT that the miraculous sign/confirmatory gifts are temporary. They will end. Verses 9, 10, and 13 give us the time line for that ending.
Yeah. That's what I just said. Paul tells us that love, unlike the "sign gifts", never fails. Love is not temporary. Sign gifts will end. Love will not.
We can read our ideas into this and say this means sign gifts ended by the time Paul authored Corinthians, or when the Bible was compiled, or when Christ comes (depending on what we want to ascribe to "perfect"), but the fact remains this is not really supported by Paul's words here. His point is that, unlike the gifts the Corinthians looked to, love is superior.
But the Greek grammar of versees 9 and 10 does support the point, as does verse 13.
If Paul was not talking about the ending of the gifts he would not have said "tongues shall cease" and "knowledge shall vanish away." But he did say those things and you have to deal with them.
We can't just throw it all out because somebody might be offended.
Paul was saying tongues shall cease. And we will know in full, and see clearly. You.are missing the point that we agree on the grammar. We agree that sign gifts, a less than perfect understanding,.... and even a less than perfect us....are all temporary. This will cease. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. But love endures.
My point is that you are reading into the passage to support your conclusions that sign gifts have ceased because you believe their purpose was to bridge that gap (to confirm) which is no longer needed.
Even if you are correct that these gifts have ceased your utilization of this passage as evidence is just as much error as me claiming the passage proves I now understand perfectly because imperfect understanding is temporary.
Paul's statement is that these gifts are temporary - which he seems to take as already understood by the Corinthians. This is NOT a lesson on sign gifts or partial understanding but a lesson on love.
Context, brother. Context.
Yes, i'm tracking you. We are making improper conclusions about side issues because the only real issue Paul is addressing is Love, that it will never cease. To make a definitive conclusion about gifts was not Paul's intention (except for the fact that they will one day cease). To make a leap in logic to say they will cease when the bible is complete would be violating exegetical principles.
There is the problem! You completely missed the point!
And again you miss the point!
Half right. "These gifts are temporary." Correct. "This is NOT a lesson on sign gifts." Wrong. It is a lesson on all the gifts. The synecdoche we see in verse 8 referring back to the gifts mentioned in verses 1 - 8, followed by the inclusion of the remaining gifts in verse 13.
Yes. Context. Read the immediately preceding context of chapter 12. "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant." There is your context, John. Spiritual gifts. And not being ignorant of the facts concerning spiritual gifts.
I Cor 13 is in the context of gifts. Paul is showing which gifts are better to strive for. The reason for being better is because some are only temporary while others are permanent. The question is when will the partial cease. Scripture says when the perfect has come. Some say it is the Bible, others say it is Christ and there are some other ideas as to what it is. Even among commentaries and scholars there is a wide range of opinions. I do not think it is scripture because even with scripture we do not know as we are known.
Exactly.
Right on the money.
Exactly.
Yes.
"Perfect" and "partial" are both neuter noun/adjectives. And so is "bible."
"Christ" is masculine. Can't refer to Him. Case, number, and gender don't match.
Remember, the book of James is probably the oldest of the New Testament writings. Paul was probably familiar with James and probably had the following in mind when he penned 1 Corinthians.
James 1:23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a mirror:
A man face to face with himself.
James 1:24 for he beholdeth himself, and goeth away, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But he that looketh into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and so continueth, being not a hearer that forgetteth but a doer that worketh, this man shall be blessed in his doing.
When we get our eyes off of self (the Corinthians were (mis)using the gifts in a self-centered manner) and into the bible, the "perfect law of liberty" we see ourselves in the light of scripture, as God sees us.
It can refer to His coming rather than the person of Christ.
"Coming" (παρουσια) is feminine.