"that which is perfect..." 1 Cor. 13:10

[JonShaff]

Exactly.


Remember, the book of James is probably the oldest of the New Testament writings. Paul was probably familiar with James and probably had the following in mind when he penned 1 Corinthians.

James 1:23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a mirror:

A man face to face with himself.

James 1:24 for he beholdeth himself, and goeth away, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But he that looketh into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and so continueth, being not a hearer that forgetteth but a doer that worketh, this man shall be blessed in his doing.

When we get our eyes off of self (the Corinthians were (mis)using the gifts in a self-centered manner) and into the bible, the "perfect law of liberty" we see ourselves in the light of scripture, as God sees us.

So, you think Paul exhorted people about something that would not be around before they died? That is kind of like an Anachronism. And there are plenty of Christians who do not have the complete Word of God in their Language. I believe that saying "complete" is a mention to the Bible is eisegesis plain and simple.

 

[JonShaff]

I'd say this is a parallel passage to Paul...

1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

 

[JonShaff]

Ahhh...Here it is, the correlating neuter noun...,

1 Corinthians 12:14
For the body is not one member, but many.

sōma--Body

When the Body has been complete/perfect, there will be no need for gifts at all. --Maybe?

That's the only neuter noun i found in the context.

 

[HankD]

Ahhh...Here it is, the correlating neuter noun...,

1 Corinthians 12:14
For the body is not one member, but many.

sōma--Body

When the Body has been complete/perfect, there will be no need for gifts at all. --Maybe?

That's the only neuter noun i found in the context.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Spirit is neuter.

 

[JonShaff]

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Spirit is neuter.

Ah, yes, good catch.

 

[JonC]

There is the problem! You completely missed the point!

And again you miss the point!

Half right. "These gifts are temporary." Correct. "This is NOT a lesson on sign gifts." Wrong. It is a lesson on all the gifts. The synecdoche we see in verse 8 referring back to the gifts mentioned in verses 1 - 8, followed by the inclusion of the remaining gifts in verse 13.

Yes. Context. Read the immediately preceding context of chapter 12. "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant." There is your context, John. Spiritual gifts. And not being ignorant of the facts concerning spiritual gifts.

Yes. I agree (and I misspoke that gifts were not the topic). But as you point out, ALL the gifts are the topic. I believe because all are given to the church for the church to do kingdom work here on earth. So they are, by nature, temporary. But love endures - and this superiority of love IS the lesson on all the gifts.

To use the passage as dogmatic evidence sign gifts have ceased is to read into the passage, plain and simple.

 

[TCassidy]

ALL the gifts are the topic.

Yeah, that's what I said. Synecdoche = part being used to indicate the whole.

To use the passage as dogmatic evidence sign gifts have ceased is to read into the passage, plain and simple.

Read verse 13. "Now (when Paul penned verse 13) abides (were still being given) faith, hope, and love, these three (not "these six")."

The gifts were no longer being given when Paul wrote 1st Corinthians.

 

[TCassidy]

So, you think Paul exhorted people about something that would not be around before they died?

Huh?

That is kind of like an Anachronism.

Paul being familiar with James's writing is anachronistic?

And there are plenty of Christians who do not have the complete Word of God in their Language.

So God misspoke when He said not to add nor subtract from it? God has to inspire His word in every language or He failed to complete His mission?

I believe that saying "complete" is a mention to the Bible is eisegesis plain and simple.

You are free to believe anything you want. But if I agreed with you we would both be wrong.

 

[JonShaff]

Also, people use 1 Cor. 13:10 to say apostles and prophets and other gifts have ceased.

Is that a conclusion that can be substantiated through sound exegesis of 1 Cor. 12-13? I do not think so.

1 Cor. 12:28
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

 

[JonC]

Yeah, that's what I said. Synecdoche = part being used to indicate the whole.

Read verse 13. "Now (when Paul penned verse 13) abides (were still being given) faith, hope, and love, these three (not "these six")."

The gifts were no longer being given when Paul wrote 1st Corinthians.

Yes. That is your assumption or conclusion based on what you view as a need (or a lack there of) of these temporary gifts. Since you believe those gifts ceased when Paul penned the letter (and since Paul was too polite to simply condemn the Corinthians use/misuse of "sign gifts) he tried to lead them to that conclusion the long way around. And I agree that if Paul had the intestinal fortitude to simple speak the truth then there would be no debate.

But since he lacked the will to speak plainly what you know to be true we have to deal with what he actually wrote. And there is therefore disagreement.

 

[HankD]

My own personal view is that "signs" are in a comatose state until the "times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled then they will awaken.

 

[JonShaff]

Paul being familiar with James's writing is anachronistic?

Paul being Familiar with James' writings is an assumption on your part.

So God misspoke when He said not to add nor subtract from it? God has to inspire His word in every language or He failed to complete His mission?

No, it just doesn't make sense in practical terms to the Body of Christ when you think that certain gifts ceasing just because the Bible is complete.

 

[TCassidy]

Paul being Familiar with James' writings is an assumption on your part.

That's right. Paul was both stupid and ignorant, completely unaware of a letter written to the churches 30 years earlier.

No, it just doesn't make sense in practical terms to the Body of Christ when you think that certain gifts ceasing just because the Bible is complete.

The gifts were given to confirm the inscripturation of God's word. When His word was complete there was nothing left to confirm. Reason to exist, gone. Gift's gone. Just like verse 13 says.

 

[TCassidy]

we have to deal with what he actually wrote.

Except that is exactly what you are refusing to do. What part of "now abides faith, hope, and love, these three" do you find confusing?

 

[JonShaff]

That's right. Paul was both stupid and ignorant, completely unaware of a letter written to the churches 30 years earlier.

The gifts were given to confirm the inscripturation of God's word. When His word was complete there was nothing left to confirm. Reason to exist, gone. Gift's gone. Just like verse 13 says.

I think you have you dates off for the time of of writings

 

[JonC]

Except that is exactly what you are refusing to do. What part of "now abides faith, hope, and love, these three" do you find confusing?

So you believe abiding in faith, hope, and love was only for the dispensation after sign gifts ceased????

 

[TCassidy]

So you believe abiding in faith, hope, and love was only for the dispensation after sign gifts ceased????

Two points then I am going to quit trying, Jon.

First of all, what "dispensation?" I am not a dispensationalist but even those who are, for the most part, are not hyper or ultra dispensationalists who see additional "dispensations" in Acts or the Epistles.

And second, the word μενει is a verb in the present, active, indicative meaning "continue." It says that faith, hope, and love continue.

 

[TCassidy]

I think you have you dates off for the time of of writings

Most conservative bible scholars believe James to have been written sometime between 35 and 49 AD. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians around 60 - 64 AD. Do the math.

 

[JonC]

Two points then I am going to quit trying, Jon.

First of all, what "dispensation?" I am not a dispensationalist but even those who are, for the most part, are not hyper or ultra dispensationalists who see additional "dispensations" in Acts or the Epistles.

And second, the word μενει is a verb in the present, active, indicative meaning "continue." It says that faith, hope, and love continue.

I do not believe that prior to Paul writing to the church in Corinth others would have been justified in writing that abiding in faith, hope and love was incomplete. We simply disagree.

 

[TCassidy]

abiding in faith, hope and love

That is not what it says. You are changing what it says to conform to your (false) understanding. Rather you should change your understanding to conform to what it says.

It does NOT say that the people were abiding in faith hope and love. It says that faith hope and love would abide (μενει = continue).