"that which is perfect..." 1 Cor. 13:10

[JonC]

That is not what it says. You are changing what it says to conform to your (false) understanding. Rather you should change your understanding to conform to what it says.

It does NOT say that the people were abiding in faith hope and love. It says that faith hope and love would abide (μενει = continue).

I did not say that the people were abiding in anything, but I see how my miswording contributed to that assumption. I was speaking of principle, not people. I believe this is an issue - if there is an open door to read into a statement then you often see fit to walk through that door. I believe this is what you did with the passage in question as well. You are missing the forest for the trees.

So, to reword my statement (more correctly) we disagree because I do not believe that abiding faith, hope, and love....these three...was at one time incomplete without sign gifts. I do not believe Paul was teaching why sign gifts ceased but rather uplifting love amongst the things to be sought.

 

[percho]

Is there a precise date for, is come?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Ahhh...Here it is, the correlating neuter noun...,

1 Corinthians 12:14
For the body is not one member, but many.

sōma--Body

When the Body has been complete/perfect, there will be no need for gifts at all. --Maybe?

That's the only neuter noun i found in the context.

With respect, I think you are missing the point, which is that the perfect/complete/mature thing cannot be a Person and therefore cannot be the Lord Jesus at His return.
IMHO, to teleion simply means 'maturity.' The gifts were given for the infancy of the Church, when the NT had either not been written or was not yet widely available, the Lord gave prophets who would give the apostolic teaching to the new churches in the absence of the written word.

'Tongues' were a prophetic sign for unbelieving Jews (1 Corinthians 14:20-22) in fulfilment of Isaiah 28:11-12. With the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, the sign became obsolete and disappeared.

 

[JonShaff]

With respect, I think you are missing the point, which is that the perfect/complete/mature thing cannot be a Person and therefore cannot be the Lord Jesus at His return.
IMHO, to teleion simply means 'maturity.' The gifts were given for the infancy of the Church, when the NT had either not been written or was not yet widely available, the Lord gave prophets who would give the apostolic teaching to the new churches in the absence of the written word.

'Tongues' were a prophetic sign for unbelieving Jews (1 Corinthians 14:20-22) in fulfilment of Isaiah 28:11-12. With the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, the sign became obsolete and disappeared.

I'm not necessarily concerned about tongues as I am "prophet" , "word of wisdom/knowledge", etc. As people use the same logic to say they ceased as well.

 

[TCassidy]

Is there a precise date for, is come?

The gifts were no longer being given to new converts at the time Paul penned the words of 1 Corinthians 13:13, around 60 AD, but those already gifted were to be allowed to continue to use their gifts (1 Cor 14:39).

The canon was completed by John around 95-100 AD after which he died. So the last of the gifted Christians passed away around that time.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I'm not necessarily concerned about tongues as I am "prophet" , "word of wisdom/knowledge", etc. As people use the same logic to say they ceased as well.

All I will say is that if anyone tries to bind my conscience, he had better be quoting Scripture to me.
The earliest Puritans in the reign of Elizabeth I used to hold 'prophesyings.' They were what we would call 'Bible studies.' I have a book by one of those early Puritans (his name escapes me at the moment) with the title 'The Art of Prophesying.' It's a book about preaching.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I just looked it up.
It's The Art of Prophecy by William Perkins, published today by Banner of Truth.
Good book!

 

[percho]

The gifts were no longer being given to new converts at the time Paul penned the words of 1 Corinthians 13:13, around 60 AD, but those already gifted were to be allowed to continue to use their gifts (1 Cor 14:39).

The canon was completed by John around 95-100 AD after which he died. So the last of the gifted Christians passed away around that time.

You are working on me but let be ask.

13:10 ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον τότε τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται
When yet may be coming the (n) maturity (n)

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts <neuter) unto men.
4:11,12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body <neuter) of (the) Christ:


Will the, "When yet may be coming the (neuter) maturity (neuter)," is fulfilled, result in the following?

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, <masculine) unto the measure of the stature of the fulness <neuter) of (the) Christ <masculine). Eph 4:13

Considering 1 Cor chapters 12 through 15 would that not the same thought as Eph 4:1-13

It is sown, it is raised.

I just have trouble thinking Paul had the canon of scripture in mind.

BTW Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[JonShaff]

With respect, I think you are missing the point, which is that the perfect/complete/mature thing cannot be a Person and therefore cannot be the Lord Jesus at His return.
IMHO, to teleion simply means 'maturity.' The gifts were given for the infancy of the Church, when the NT had either not been written or was not yet widely available, the Lord gave prophets who would give the apostolic teaching to the new churches in the absence of the written word.

'Tongues' were a prophetic sign for unbelieving Jews (1 Corinthians 14:20-22) in fulfilment of Isaiah 28:11-12. With the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, the sign became obsolete and disappeared.

You are working on me but let be ask.

13:10 ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον τότε τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται
When yet may be coming the (n) maturity (n)

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts <neuter) unto men.
4:11,12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body <neuter) of (the) Christ:


Will the, "When yet may be coming the (neuter) maturity (neuter)," is fulfilled, result in the following?

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, <masculine) unto the measure of the stature of the fulness <neuter) of (the) Christ <masculine). Eph 4:13

Considering 1 Cor chapters 12 through 15 would that not the same thought as Eph 4:1-13

It is sown, it is raised.

I just have trouble thinking Paul had the canon of scripture in mind.

BTW Thanks for your thoughts.

I believe you are thinking along the lines of what I'm thinking. That the Gifts of the Spirit are necessary in Producing the Love of Christ in us, resulting in the Body being Brought into the Fullness of the Stature of Christ. I speak of gifts generally. What I'm being specific about is the fact that gifts must still be in effect because we have not attained to full maturity yet. The Spirit and the Word work together to mature the Body of Christ until the day our bodies are redeemed.

 

[37818]

Some notes:
v.8 refers to only three gifts: Gifts of prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowlege.

Two are said to be done away, gifts of prophecy and the word of knowledge. One is said to become inoperative, cease.

v.9 two of the gifts are referenced being in use and being not yet perfect, being in part. (compare James 1:17 about every gift).

v.10 refers to the gifts that which are in part being done away, when that which is perfect has come. And an understanding being the two gifts as in part are done away and then are perfect.

Holy Scripture always was understood to be perfect (compare James 1:25). And Holy Scripture was always the revelation of Jesus Christ (Luke 24:44; Revelation 19:10).

Now the last Holy Scripture understood by many to have been written is itself called the Revelation of Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:1). And it is understood by many to have a seal upon it that no other revelation is to be added to the mere hearing of it (Revelation 22:18-19), it being called the Revelation of Jesus Christ, making it the close of the Holy Scripture. And it being the perfection of the gifts of prophecy and the word of knowledge.

 

[TCassidy]

v.8 refers to only three gifts: Gifts of prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowlege.

Look up the figure of speech known as Synecdoche.

 

[37818]

Look up the figure of speech known as Synecdoche.

Yes. But it does not change the fact only those three speaking gifts are mentioned. And two are said to be done away and one to become inoperative. The context of vs.8-10. What is in part can be understood to be what is done away. There is evidence, I think, to believe that the word of wisdom a speaking gift is still operative.

 

[HankD]

Yes. But it does not change the fact only those three speaking gifts are mentioned. And two are said to be done away and one to become inoperative. The context of vs.8-10. What is in part can be understood to be what is done away. There is evidence, I think, to believe that the word of wisdom a speaking gift is still operative.

But "a word of wisdom" or "a word of knowledge" in what I have seen and heard is the ability to receive a prayer request from someone in an assembly for instance - sometimes in the television audience.

1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
...
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


1 Corinthians 13 the Love (agape) chapter.

 

[TCassidy]

But it does not change the fact only those three speaking gifts are mentioned.

Uh, no, they are all included in the Synecdoche.

 

[37818]

But "a word of wisdom" or "a word of knowledge" in what I have seen and heard is the ability to receive a prayer request from someone in an assembly for instance - sometimes in the television audience.

1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
...
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


1 Corinthians 13 the Love (agape) chapter.

Uh, no, they are all included in the Synecdoche.

Luke makes reference to Jesus' giving the word of wisdom, ". . ..For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. . . ." -- Luke 21:15.

So is it to be understood that this promise then already took place historically before the Apostle John gave the Revelation of Jesus Christ which he received (Revelation 1:1)?

 

[TCassidy]

Don't add to the word of God. Luke did not say "a word of wisdom." He said a mouth and wisdom. Eloquence, the ability to speak as the case may demand.

 

[HankD]

Luke makes reference to Jesus' giving the word of wisdom, ". . ..For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. . . ." -- Luke 21:15.

Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

 

[37818]

Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Peter and John are Apostles having the gift of Apostles. What is that suppose to show? (1 Corinthians 12:29) That all the gifts of the Spirit were operational then is not at issue. I understand what Jesus spoke refers to a future event which even now is yet a future event (Luke 21:9-15 . . .)

 

[HankD]

Peter and John are Apostles having the gift of Apostles. What is that suppose to show? (1 Corinthians 12:29) That all the gifts of the Spirit were operational then is not at issue. I understand what Jesus spoke refers to a future event which even now is yet a future event (Luke 21:9-15 . . .)

Its a positive response to your post#75, that's all.
Although the question is valid: did this gift continue on after the apostles left the scene?

 

[37818]

Don't add to the word of God. Luke did not say "a word of wisdom." He said a mouth and wisdom. Eloquence, the ability to speak as the case may demand.

The argument that the mention of those three gifts are Synecdoche is indeed adding all the spoken gifts to be included as gifts being "in part." The Charismatic interpretation is Synecdoche of that text (v.8) as well. "That which is perfect is come" to refer to what comes with the coming of Christ. When those gifts will not be needed. Now we are told that the gifts coming from God are both good and "perfect" (James 1:17). And the tongues, when interpretation is given results in four things (1 Corinthians 14:6) which can be said to come of those two gifts (gifts of prophecy and the "word" of knowledge) which were understood to be "in part" (v.9). Furthermore wisdom which comes from the "mouth" can be understood as a "word" of wisdom (compare Matthew 4:4). Arguing interpretation versus the explicit wording of the text.