Were There Non-Catholic Churches Before Protestants?

[HopefulNChrist]

Were there any non-Catholic Churches before Protestant churches came out of the Catholic Church?

I was kind of hoping that was where Baptist churches had originated from without also coming out of the Catholic Church in being formed, but I guess not, otherwise Baptists would not have carried over the term "sacrament", let alone, seeking the Holy Spirit to come into the worship place when He is already in them.

But I guess the Baptist churches has the groundwork for and are experiencing the spirits of the antichrist by feeling its presence in the worship place, and thereby in error, are assuming that was the Holy Spirit when it is not. Seducing spirits, more like.

I hope God is peradventuring to wake some Baptists up to depart from this iniquity in defense of the faith in Jesus Christ which is the good fight.

I reckon I shall not be joining any Baptist church after all. The reformation is incomplete from departing from all iniquity. I reckon if the answer is "no" to the OP's question, then the Lord shall remain my refuge as there seemingly no place for me to have fellowship in a church that is not courting with apostasy as prophesied.

Isaiah 5:1Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: 2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. 4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: 6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. 7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. 8 Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth! 9 In mine ears said the Lord of hosts, Of a truth many houses shall be desolate, even great and fair, without inhabitant.

Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. 7 All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the Lord, the habitation of justice, even the Lord, the hope of their fathers.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world...… 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

This is what I am left with. I am trusting Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd to follow Him.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God. As God hath said: “I will dwell in them and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” 17 Therefore, “Come out from among them, and be ye separate,” saith the Lord. “And touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you, 18 and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters,” saith the Lord Almighty.

 

[utilyan]

Were there any non-Catholic Churches before Protestant churches came out of the Catholic Church?

I was kind of hoping that was where Baptist churches had originated from without also coming out of the Catholic Church in being formed, but I guess not, otherwise Baptists would not have carried over the term "sacrament", let alone, seeking the Holy Spirit to come into the worship place when He is already in them.

But I guess the Baptist churches has the groundwork for and are experiencing the spirits of the antichrist by feeling its presence in the worship place, and thereby in error, are assuming that was the Holy Spirit when it is not. Seducing spirits, more like.

I hope God is peradventuring to wake some Baptists up to depart from this iniquity in defense of the faith in Jesus Christ which is the good fight.

I reckon I shall not be joining any Baptist church after all. The reformation is incomplete from departing from all iniquity. I reckon if the answer is "no" to the OP's question, then the Lord shall remain my refuge as there seemingly no place for me to have fellowship in a church that is not courting with apostasy as prophesied.

Isaiah 5:1Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: 2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. 4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: 6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. 7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. 8 Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth! 9 In mine ears said the Lord of hosts, Of a truth many houses shall be desolate, even great and fair, without inhabitant.

Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. 7 All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the Lord, the habitation of justice, even the Lord, the hope of their fathers.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world...… 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

This is what I am left with. I am trusting Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd to follow Him.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God. As God hath said: “I will dwell in them and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” 17 Therefore, “Come out from among them, and be ye separate,” saith the Lord. “And touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you, 18 and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters,” saith the Lord Almighty.

If you want to accuse Baptist of being evil you must live under a rock.

Sacrament is a fancy word for gift from God. So believing there is no gift from God is silly.


Name one person in the entire world who has a better understanding of Christianity then you.

Whats the denomination of the person who taught you? "the right one" "the true one"

Self-proclaim prophets, last saint on earth, come dime a dozen.


No one can join you if they tried, because secret religions don't proclaim what they believe. No denomination name, not a single person, not a website anyone can learn from.

If you are going to pick on the baptist how about actually challenge a teaching of theirs.

Also lets see you handle like scripture states:

15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWR THREE WITNESSES EVERYFACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

Go get one or two more of you.

Accusers foundations are not built on any truth they hold, foundation is always based on whining about someone else.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

If you want to accuse Baptist of being evil you must live under a rock.

Hardly. Just recognizing the signs of the times as to why faith is hard to find in these latter days. I was thinking that the Baptist church would be more in line with the scripture, but then again... the prophesy did say how bad it will be before He comes.

Sacrament is a fancy word for gift from God. So believing there is no gift from God is silly.

I am sure the same argument can be said for the Eucharist and the Mass too, right? In fact, a local Methodist church used those terms.

Name one person in the entire world who has a better understanding of Christianity then you.

Jesus Christ in me does as I am understanding His words in the KJV to mean in discerning good and evil in these latter days.

Whats the denomination of the person who taught you? "the right one" "the true one"

I would not have been considering Baptist if I had actually belonged to a "right" one.

Self-proclaim prophets, last saint on earth, come dime a dozen.

Yes.. self proclaim prophets do. How was I proclaiming myself when investigating to join a Baptist church?

By HIs grace & by His help, am doing what scripture is leading me to do

No one can join you if they tried, because secret religions don't proclaim what they believe. No denomination name, not a single person, not a website anyone can learn from.

If you are going to pick on the baptist how about actually challenge a teaching of theirs.

Well, each believer is supposed to be a witness of Jesus Christ; not their church. We are to be a disciple of Jesus Christ rather than being a disciple of a church. If the church was being a disciple of Jesus Christ, then they would be open to pruning to bear more fruit as each believer is supposed to be in our daily walk with Him in being His disciple. It is growth I am after as well as keeping the faith; but it seems churches have become complacent in not proving everything taught and practice in their church to really be concern about abiding in Him in word & deed. I can't fight red tape in a church that does not like any one making waves, even from their own members. There is no way to reprove errors in a Baptist church than in a Catholic.

Maybe if the Baptist churches... the SBA .. held a reformation within … maybe other denominational churches may follow suit.

Let Jesus Christ help them to discern and reprove that which is not of Him so that their faith may shine more in respect to the faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit....4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

I understand that not one of us is perfect, and we grow in the knowledge of Him and repent when He helps us to recognize iniquity in our individual lives, but what I don't understand is... why churches believe that they are perfect as a church? How can there be any growth when we ignore the actual meaning of His words in order to keep the faith which is the good fight?

Also lets see you handle like scripture states:

15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWR THREE WITNESSES EVERYFACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

Go get one or two more of you.

Accusers foundations are not built on any truth they hold, foundation is always based on whining about someone else.

Makes you wonder how you can post anything, huh?

The accusations begins when His words judges works as evil. I am just relaying His words and His judgments.

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

His words has already given judgment for us to discern good & evil by, but only God can cause the increase on subverted believers.

Imagine yourself as a Catholic... and someone comes along sharing His words that reproves what you are practicing as a Catholic for doing.... do you become offended or do you desire to be abiding in Him to investigate His words with Him at that throne of grace to confirm? Well.. that is what a Catholic should do, but usually they just trust their Church to lead them right.

You are my brother as the Catholics are... but I am just pointing out that after having investigated what Baptists believes, and I really did not know they would actually look for the presence of the Holy Spirit in the worship place like that nor that in their official doctrine of the SBA that the term sacrament was still being used, even though some say they don't use that term in communion service... but the disappointment is really at the unwillingness to address the scripture from which my concern stems from for why I am led to the decision not to join a Baptist church now.

 

[utilyan]

Hardly. Just recognizing the signs of the times as to why faith is hard to find in these latter days. I was thinking that the Baptist church would be more in line with the scripture, but then again... the prophesy did say how bad it will be before He comes.



I am sure the same argument can be said for the Eucharist and the Mass too, right? In fact, a local Methodist church used those terms.



Jesus Christ in me does as I am understanding His words in the KJV to mean in discerning good and evil in these latter days.



I would not have been considering Baptist if I had actually belonged to a "right" one.



Yes.. self proclaim prophets do. How was I proclaiming myself when investigating to join a Baptist church?

By HIs grace & by His help, am doing what scripture is leading me to do



Well, each believer is supposed to be a witness of Jesus Christ; not their church. We are to be a disciple of Jesus Christ rather than being a disciple of a church. If the church was being a disciple of Jesus Christ, then they would be open to pruning to bear more fruit as each believer is supposed to be in our daily walk with Him in being His disciple. It is growth I am after as well as keeping the faith; but it seems churches have become complacent in not proving everything taught and practice in their church to really be concern about abiding in Him in word & deed. I can't fight red tape in a church that does not like any one making waves, even from their own members. There is no way to reprove errors in a Baptist church than in a Catholic.

Maybe if the Baptist churches... the SBA .. held a reformation within … maybe other denominational churches may follow suit.

Let Jesus Christ help them to discern and reprove that which is not of Him so that their faith may shine more in respect to the faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit....4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

I understand that not one of us is perfect, and we grow in the knowledge of Him and repent when He helps us to recognize iniquity in our individual lives, but what I don't understand is... why churches believe that they are perfect as a church? How can there be any growth when we ignore the actual meaning of His words in order to keep the faith which is the good fight?



Makes you wonder how you can post anything, huh?

The accusations begins when His words judges works as evil. I am just relaying His words and His judgments.

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

His words has already given judgment for us to discern good & evil by, but only God can cause the increase on subverted believers.

Imagine yourself as a Catholic... and someone comes along sharing His words that reproves what you are practicing as a Catholic for doing.... do you become offended or do you desire to be abiding in Him to investigate His words with Him at that throne of grace to confirm? Well.. that is what a Catholic should do, but usually they just trust their Church to lead them right.

You are my brother as the Catholics are... but I am just pointing out that after having investigated what Baptists believes, and I really did not know they would actually look for the presence of the Holy Spirit in the worship place like that nor that in their official doctrine of the SBA that the term sacrament was still being used, even though some say they don't use that term in communion service... but the disappointment is really at the unwillingness to address the scripture from which my concern stems from for why I am led to the decision not to join a Baptist church now.

Brother find me RULE #1.

Who is the first to put the bible in your hands?

If you were brought up BAPTIST and now question their loyalty how do you assume any foundation?


"I am sure the same argument can be said for the Eucharist and the Mass too, right? In fact, a local Methodist church used those terms."

"investigate His words with Him at that throne of grace to confirm?"

Lets investigate.

1 Corinthians 11

24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

"given thanks"
εὐχαριστήσας
eucharistēsas

I guess the bible is too catholic for you now?

OR maybe.....

2 Peter 3

16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.


I don't care if you walk back to Baptist rather than a Catholic, point is without guidance your always going to have some distorted hermeneutics. Your just starting off "window shopping" for the right church, thats not how it works.

I suggest starting with who put the book in your hand, Or even first suggest you need a book. WHO baptized you?

I bet if you actually practiced what a typical baptist church teaches, you'd be a Saint. The internal sincerity between you and God far outweighs whatever legalism outside.

Don't shop for religions to see which one can best protect you from God, You rely on God to protect you from religions, ALL RELIGIONS, including the one your starting or think is right in your own mind.

In other words if you just join or a create something that tells you everything you want to hear that is not impressive.

I rather you attend to the worst church you can find, THEN you really have to depend and trust on God, rather then trying to fix everything yourself.

Its like YOU ARE the REFORM who doesn't want to be the REFORM.

 

[rsr]

Not sure what you're experience has been, but I have never met a Baptist who considered baptism or communion as sacraments, but raather as ordinances. And I don't know what the SBA is.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Brother find me RULE #1.

Who is the first to put the bible in your hands?

If you were brought up BAPTIST and now question their loyalty how do you assume any foundation?


"I am sure the same argument can be said for the Eucharist and the Mass too, right? In fact, a local Methodist church used those terms."

"investigate His words with Him at that throne of grace to confirm?"

Lets investigate.

1 Corinthians 11

24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

"given thanks"
εὐχαριστήσας
eucharistēsas

I guess the bible is too catholic for you now?

OR maybe.....

How about do this in remembrance of Me rather than do this to receive Me again to carry out My work of redemption in you which is what the catholic catechism teach for how they are misapplying His words to mean. Hebrews 10 chapter is actually a rebuke for what they are doing in the Mass as receiving the sacrifice for sin again as if it was not good enough the first time. That is the sin Paul is talking about in willfully sinning when they had knowledge that there is no more sacrifice for sin. The Mass is presenting that one time sacrifice for sin "presently" to be received again and again and again and thus placing the blood of the Covenant to be on par with the blood of goats and bulls as they had to be often repeated under the Old Covenant. That offends God and it will be terrible for Catholics when they fall into the hand of the living God, but they are still His people as it is written for why they shall be judged for it.

So why should Baptist parrot anything off of them if they want Catholic to repent from the works of darkness, then they should drop the term sacrament because Baptist DO NOT NEEDE TO USE THAT TERM and drop the lie that the Holy Spirit comes into the worship place of believers when that is the spirit of the antichrist when the real Holy Spirit has been dwelling in them since they had been saved....that, brother, is calling defending the faith in Jesus Christ which is the good fight.

So may the Lord help you look at what you are fighting for... and it isn't for keeping the faith in Jesus Christ, but leaving everybody alone in whatever iniquity they are in... to not examine ourselves in the faith even though Paul taught this. 2 Corinthians 13:5 or to prove all things in abstaining from all appearances of evil with His help 1 Thessalonians 5:21-24

Take a step back and pray, brother, because I know it is not on me to convince you when only God can cause the increase.

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

2 Peter 3

16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.


I don't care if you walk back to Baptist rather than a Catholic, point is without guidance your always going to have some distorted hermeneutics. Your just starting off "window shopping" for the right church, thats not how it works.

I suggest starting with who put the book in your hand, Or even first suggest you need a book. WHO baptized you?

I bet if you actually practiced what a typical baptist church teaches, you'd be a Saint. The internal sincerity between you and God far outweighs whatever legalism outside.

Well, you sure are angry and hardly edifying nor correcting by the scripture but rather just plain making a case vainly and hypocritically for why no one can correct any one by the scripture and thus in hypocrisy rebuking me to silence and just follow the crowd blindly.

Everybody is a saint because of what Jesus Christ has done in having made us His. It is whether or not we are abiding in Him and His words as His disciples is what that running the race to be received by Him to the Marriage Supper in Heaven is all about.

Don't shop for religions to see which one can best protect you from God, You rely on God to protect you from religions, ALL RELIGIONS, including the one your starting or think is right in your own mind.

In other words if you just join or a create something that tells you everything you want to hear that is not impressive.

I rather you attend to the worst church you can find, THEN you really have to depend and trust on God, rather then trying to fix everything yourself.

Its like YOU ARE the REFORM who doesn't want to be the REFORM.

It's more like looking for His disciples that desire to follow Him rather than disciples of a church denomination.

I accept that you are not willing to listen nor prove everything by Him in the scriptures of the KJV.

So how do you correct any one? Or is that your point? You cannot correct a church, therefore ergo, you cannot correct a believer?

Is that how you raise your children or rather...how your parents or your teachers taught you by never correcting you?

If you value your relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, you would understand that I am defending your faith in Him, and you would allow the reproofs to be applied to the Baptist church because if we are to be better witness of Him individually in the world, then how much more is required as an assembly that cares for one another and corrects one another in Christ's love?

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Not sure what you're experience has been, but I have never met a Baptist who considered baptism or communion as sacraments, but raather as ordinances. And I don't know what the SBA is.

Check out the poll and the posts following in that discussion to see that not every Baptist is speaking the same thing nor keeping the faith in Jesus Christ.

This one regarding Baptist using the term sacrament in communion.

Do Baptists Use the Term "Sacrament" in Communion?

This one below regarding seeking the Presence of the Holy Spirit in the worship place... which a few Baptist members did touch upon in the link above in that thread, albeit, nobody else voted in the poll below. ( I am not Baptist, but I had voted anyway so that everybody would know where I stood in the poll as well as in the other polls addressing Baptist members. )

Do Baptists Seek Presence of Holy Spirit in Worship?

 

[rsr]

Then it should be clear that use of "sacrament" by American Baptists (I can't vouch for others) is a rarity. I still don't know what the SBA is.

 

[utilyan]

How about do this in remembrance of Me rather than do this to receive Me again to carry out My work of redemption in you which is what the catholic catechism teach for how they are misapplying His words to mean. Hebrews 10 chapter is actually a rebuke for what they are doing in the Mass as receiving the sacrifice for sin again as if it was not good enough the first time. That is the sin Paul is talking about in willfully sinning when they had knowledge that there is no more sacrifice for sin. The Mass is presenting that one time sacrifice for sin "presently" to be received again and again and again and thus placing the blood of the Covenant to be on par with the blood of goats and bulls as they had to be often repeated under the Old Covenant. That offends God and it will be terrible for Catholics when they fall into the hand of the living God, but they are still His people as it is written for why they shall be judged for it.

So why should Baptist parrot anything off of them if they want Catholic to repent from the works of darkness, then they should drop the term sacrament because Baptist DO NOT NEEDE TO USE THAT TERM and drop the lie that the Holy Spirit comes into the worship place of believers when that is the spirit of the antichrist when the real Holy Spirit has been dwelling in them since they had been saved....that, brother, is calling defending the faith in Jesus Christ which is the good fight.

So may the Lord help you look at what you are fighting for... and it isn't for keeping the faith in Jesus Christ, but leaving everybody alone in whatever iniquity they are in... to not examine ourselves in the faith even though Paul taught this. 2 Corinthians 13:5 or to prove all things in abstaining from all appearances of evil with His help 1 Thessalonians 5:21-24

Take a step back and pray, brother, because I know it is not on me to convince you when only God can cause the increase.

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?



Well, you sure are angry and hardly edifying nor correcting by the scripture but rather just plain making a case vainly and hypocritically for why no one can correct any one by the scripture and thus in hypocrisy rebuking me to silence and just follow the crowd blindly.

Everybody is a saint because of what Jesus Christ has done in having made us His. It is whether or not we are abiding in Him and His words as His disciples is what that running the race to be received by Him to the Marriage Supper in Heaven is all about.



It's more like looking for His disciples that desire to follow Him rather than disciples of a church denomination.

I accept that you are not willing to listen nor prove everything by Him in the scriptures of the KJV.

So how do you correct any one? Or is that your point? You cannot correct a church, therefore ergo, you cannot correct a believer?

Is that how you raise your children or rather...how your parents or your teachers taught you by never correcting you?

If you value your relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, you would understand that I am defending your faith in Him, and you would allow the reproofs to be applied to the Baptist church because if we are to be better witness of Him individually in the world, then how much more is required as an assembly that cares for one another and corrects one another in Christ's love?

I believe everyone including you are following your good conscience and it is very noble to correct others.

In fact it would be a sin for you to act against your good conscience.

I just showed you the term EUCHARIST is biblical, its the word they used.

The church does not repeat the sacrifice. Example is Passover.

There is only one Passover, The Jews don't repeat Passover. You participate in the Passover.

The Eucharist you participate on the Cross. The event itself is made present.

Even when Jesus Christ was doing the Eucharist he is participating with the sacrifice of the cross, he wasn't repeating the Cross.



Revelations 5

6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

We see the sacrifice in Revelations, this here is not a repeat either.

The Eucharist is the offering of Jesus to God, not a repeat killing of Jesus.


Scripture speaks of pure offering given to God among all the gentiles and heathens.

Malachi 1

11“For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD of hosts.

Its going to happen all day long. The catch is there is only one pure offering, it cannot be repeated.


"Well, you sure are angry and hardly edifying nor correcting by the scripture but rather just plain making a case vainly and hypocritically for why no one can correct any one by the scripture and thus in hypocrisy rebuking me to silence and just follow the crowd blindly."

If I'm angry ill make sure to shake my fist and use proper emojis

Sorry I came off that way.

I love debating and done it for years. I have no ill will towards you. I don't want you to change your faith. I hope you get the encouragement to keep up the good fight, especially if you might have been taught my soul is on the line. For all that, thank you.

If I come off combative you have permission to tell me so, nothing will put me in my place quicker.

I'm pretty sure if you met anyone here face to face they are the most loving people who actually show some priority to Jesus.

 

[37818]

Hardly. Just recognizing the signs of the times as to why faith is hard to find in these latter days. I was thinking that the Baptist church would be more in line with the scripture, but then again... the prophesy did say how bad it will be before He comes.



I am sure the same argument can be said for the Eucharist and the Mass too, right? In fact, a local Methodist church used those terms.



Jesus Christ in me does as I am understanding His words in the KJV to mean in discerning good and evil in these latter days.



I would not have been considering Baptist if I had actually belonged to a "right" one.



Yes.. self proclaim prophets do. How was I proclaiming myself when investigating to join a Baptist church?

By HIs grace & by His help, am doing what scripture is leading me to do



Well, each believer is supposed to be a witness of Jesus Christ; not their church. We are to be a disciple of Jesus Christ rather than being a disciple of a church. If the church was being a disciple of Jesus Christ, then they would be open to pruning to bear more fruit as each believer is supposed to be in our daily walk with Him in being His disciple. It is growth I am after as well as keeping the faith; but it seems churches have become complacent in not proving everything taught and practice in their church to really be concern about abiding in Him in word & deed. I can't fight red tape in a church that does not like any one making waves, even from their own members. There is no way to reprove errors in a Baptist church than in a Catholic.

Maybe if the Baptist churches... the SBA .. held a reformation within … maybe other denominational churches may follow suit.

Let Jesus Christ help them to discern and reprove that which is not of Him so that their faith may shine more in respect to the faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit....4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

I understand that not one of us is perfect, and we grow in the knowledge of Him and repent when He helps us to recognize iniquity in our individual lives, but what I don't understand is... why churches believe that they are perfect as a church? How can there be any growth when we ignore the actual meaning of His words in order to keep the faith which is the good fight?



Makes you wonder how you can post anything, huh?

The accusations begins when His words judges works as evil. I am just relaying His words and His judgments.

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

His words has already given judgment for us to discern good & evil by, but only God can cause the increase on subverted believers.

Imagine yourself as a Catholic... and someone comes along sharing His words that reproves what you are practicing as a Catholic for doing.... do you become offended or do you desire to be abiding in Him to investigate His words with Him at that throne of grace to confirm? Well.. that is what a Catholic should do, but usually they just trust their Church to lead them right.

You are my brother as the Catholics are... but I am just pointing out that after having investigated what Baptists believes, and I really did not know they would actually look for the presence of the Holy Spirit in the worship place like that nor that in their official doctrine of the SBA that the term sacrament was still being used, even though some say they don't use that term in communion service... but the disappointment is really at the unwillingness to address the scripture from which my concern stems from for why I am led to the decision not to join a Baptist church now.

The Apostolic authority is solely the Christian New Testament.

New Testament churches as found named in the NT are named after their locations.

In the time of the Apostles and church prophets there were no denominations as we know today.

Yet Paul wrote the Corinthian church:

". . . Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?. . ." -- 1 Corinthians 1:12-13.

The Baptist label does not guarantee baptist.
The Catholic label does not guarantee catholic.
The Orthodox label does not guarantee orthodox.
The Christian label does not guarantee Christian.

The only thing for sure is God's word and His authentication of His word and the genuine Christians He makes to be Christian (2 Corinthians 5:17).

 

[utilyan]

The Apostolic authority is solely the Christian New Testament.

New Testament churches as found named in the NT are named after their locations.

In the time of the Apostles and church prophets there were no denominations as we know today.

Yet Paul wrote the Corinthian church:

". . . Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?. . ." -- 1 Corinthians 1:12-13.

The Baptist label does not guarantee baptist.
The Catholic label does not guarantee catholic.
The Orthodox label does not guarantee orthodox.
The Christian label does not guarantee Christian.

The only thing for sure is God's word and His authentication of His word and the genuine Christians He makes to be Christian (2 Corinthians 5:17).

"The Apostolic authority is solely the Christian New Testament."

Should be easy to find a bible verse that claims so. Bible verse please.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Then it should be clear that use of "sacrament" by American Baptists (I can't vouch for others) is a rarity. I still don't know what the SBA is.

Maybe it isn't clear after all.

Leaving Jerome's quote of the quote from Tom Chantry, Reformed Baptist historian, out of the quote so all of it can be read instead of being cut off in the quote by the displayed length of the quote..​

Tom Chantry, Reformed Baptist historian:

chantrynotes.wordpress.com

"I’m writing from Rockford, Illinois, where I am this week attending the General Assembly of ARBCA – the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America....I listened to discussions about...the proper meaning of the Lord’s Supper....Don Lindblad helps us see that Christ is present in his church...through the sacraments....it reminded me of why I love the Reformed Baptist movement."

 

[HopefulNChrist]

I believe everyone including you are following your good conscience and it is very noble to correct others.

In fact it would be a sin for you to act against your good conscience.

I just showed you the term EUCHARIST is biblical, its the word they used.

Not per how Christ meant, it is not. I understand that you are applying how the Catholic used Christ's words, but scripture cannot go against scripture, therefore what He said does not mean nor support Eucharist for how they are using that term which Catholic has created. How they are using Eucharist to mean is the definition of idolatry. Nothing short of it.

Plus 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 can also be apply as reproof towards receiving Jesus Christ again or the Spirit of Christ again which they are doing by receiving the Eucharist and the wine at the Mass. Luke 13:24-30 warns of believers being left behind for it.

There can be no leeway in that judgment. Baptists cannot parrot any original term that was created for Catholicism.

The church does not repeat the sacrifice. Example is Passover.

There is only one Passover, The Jews don't repeat Passover. You participate in the Passover.

The Eucharist you participate on the Cross. The event itself is made present.

Even when Jesus Christ was doing the Eucharist he is participating with the sacrifice of the cross, he wasn't repeating the Cross.

Jesus at the Last Supper was before the cross and therefore that particular sacrifice wasn't given yet to be participating in which is why Christ's Presence is NOT in the Eucharist when Jesus told them for what they were to do communion for; in remembrance of Him. To make communion for more than what it is... like "holy" communion, is the iniquity of idolatry.

It is not hard for Paul or any of His disciples to refer to communion as holy communion, but they did not, therefore, we should not.

Hebrews 10:1-31 rebukes all believers for using communion for the basis of carrying out Christ's work of redemption on the cross as being made "present" in continually carried out in communion aka the Mass. That is what the Catholic catechism teaches; that Christ's one time sacrifice for sins is made present to be received again in carrying out Christ's work of redemption each time in the Mass. That, brother, is an appearance of evil that all believers should avoid in word & deed.

Protestants may not see it the same way as the Catholic Church does, but abstaining from all appearance of evil on this issue is a must as their use of the term Eucharist, sacrament, holy communion, and the Mass are beyond the words of scripture for any one to be using..

Revelations 5

6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

We see the sacrifice in Revelations, this here is not a repeat either.

The Eucharist is the offering of Jesus to God, not a repeat killing of Jesus.

{1084 "Seated at the right hand of the Father" and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace. the sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the action of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify.

1085 In the liturgy of the Church, it is principally his own Paschal mystery that Christ signifies and makes present. During his earthly life Jesus announced his Paschal mystery by his teaching and anticipated it by his actions. When his Hour comes, he lives out the unique event of history which does not pass away: Jesus dies, is buried, rises from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of the Father "once for all."8 His Paschal mystery is a real event that occurred in our history, but it is unique: all other historical events happen once, and then they pass away, swallowed up in the past. the Paschal mystery of Christ, by contrast, cannot remain only in the past, because by his death he destroyed death, and all that Christ is - all that he did and suffered for all men - participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times while being made present in them all. the event of the Cross and Resurrection abides and draws everything toward life.

. . . from the time of the Church of the Apostles . . ."

"1088 "To accomplish so great a work" - the dispensation or communication of his work of salvation - "Christ is always present in his Church, especially in her liturgical celebrations. He is present in the Sacrifice of the Mass not only in the person of his minister, 'the same now offering, through the ministry of priests, who formerly offered himself on the cross,' but especially in the Eucharistic species. "

1113 The whole liturgical life of the Church revolves around the Eucharistic sacrifice and the sacraments.29 There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.​

1116 Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ,33 which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant.

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. 51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament.

The Catholic Church may use the term Passover in relation to communion, but it is not done in remembrance of Passover when they are applying communion as if Passover's event was happening again when the angel of death passes over them as they take His one time sacrifice for sin to be made present again to receive again

In other words, they are not doing as the Jews did in remembrance of Passover, but making that Passover event present as if the angel of death is presently passing over them in respect to when carrying the work of Christ's redemption on the cross.

There can be no partiality with the wicked nor any mimicking of terms and practices originated from that dead work.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Scripture speaks of pure offering given to God among all the gentiles and heathens.

Malachi 1

11“For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD of hosts.

Its going to happen all day long. The catch is there is only one pure offering, it cannot be repeated.

The trick on the Catholic part is that by making that one time sacrifice for sin "made" present each time in the Mass, they are having access to that one time sacrifice for sin to be "received" again so it is being repeated on the receiving end. It is the same as repeating that one time sacrifice for sin on the reception part.

"Well, you sure are angry and hardly edifying nor correcting by the scripture but rather just plain making a case vainly and hypocritically for why no one can correct any one by the scripture and thus in hypocrisy rebuking me to silence and just follow the crowd blindly."

If I'm angry ill make sure to shake my fist and use proper emojis

Sorry I came off that way.

I love debating and done it for years. I have no ill will towards you. I don't want you to change your faith. I hope you get the encouragement to keep up the good fight, especially if you might have been taught my soul is on the line. For all that, thank you.

If I come off combative you have permission to tell me so, nothing will put me in my place quicker.

I'm pretty sure if you met anyone here face to face they are the most loving people who actually show some priority to Jesus.

Well the words in this post does come off as a conversation this time rather than an argument. I thank the Lord Jesus Christ for that. I hope you see my words as addressing the issue for which I have contentions for why I believe Baptists should reconsider and discern. I know I cannot convince any one when it is on the Lord to do so, but I can hope in Him that He is helping me share my concerns for the body of Christ, especially regarding His judgments on words and deeds not of Him.

As a witness to those astray in Catholicism, Protestants shouldn't be using any original terms nor modified and thus unbiblical practices stemming from the works of Catholicism if they wish our faith in Jesus Christ to be clearly seen as apart from them.

 

[Covenanter]

To answer your OP question - YES.

This thread gives a lot on information.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

To answer your OP question - YES.

This thread gives a lot on information.

Thanks for sharing the link to that thread even though it is in a Baptist Only part of this forum where I cannot reply to, so I will reply by quoting from the link provided in that OP as I provide that link from that OP again below that I am quoting from:

A Welsh Succession of Primitive Baptist Faith and Practice | The Reformed Reader

"Finally, not all writers of Baptist histories agree. Most often their disagreements are minor and due to incomplete information. However, in some few instances, I suspect varying accounts of history are the result of denominational prejudice. Sometimes histories were written with a polemic attitude, to indict some group or defend oneself. The phenomenon of revisionist histories reached almost epidemic proportion with works written in the period immediately following the mission/anti-mission divisions of the 19th century. "

This makes me wonder how you can prove that there were non-Catholic Churches before Protestants.

I have no doubt that there were independent churches from the Catholic Churches, but I was wondering if the Council of Nicea was not a means to bring all churches under subordination by the use of their "ecumenical creeds", and thus corrupting all the churches, especially by the modified Nicene creed of 325 A.D. in #81 A.D. where they had introduced the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son and even gave the title of the "Giver of Life" to the Holy Spirit, rather than the Son.

Granted, scripture from Antioch would have 2 Corinthians 3:6 as small letter "s" in spirit whereas Alexandria would have it as capitalized in referring to the Holy Spirit BUT both source origins of scripture has John 6:30-35 saying that Jesus is the bread of life that gives life unto the world and so which scripture is correct for 2 Corinthians 3:6? Both source answers that question again by pointing out that scripture is to testify of Jesus Christ so readers come to the Son for life in Matthew 5:39-40.

We can see the problem that the early churches were going through and by not recognizing Jesus's warning about false prophets coming in... it does make me wonder which church actually escaped the influence of those creeds being imposed on them?

Indeed, Matthew 7:13-27 seems to apply to broadening the way in the worship place by putting the Holy Spirit in the spotlight with the Father & the Son, done by an ecumenical effort of gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. Supernatural phenomenon has been an occasional result for when honoring the Holy Spirit in worship or seeking His Presence in the worship place, and some have gotten the experience of what they believe was the Holy Spirit coming over them , bringing tongues without interpretation later on in life apart from the time that the believer has been saved at the calling of the gospel. Others experience other phenomenon as Paul reported this iniquity already at work in his days in causing believers to fall away from the faith.... and that was before the creed broadened the way in coming to God the Father in the worship place other than by coming to the Son by having the Holy Spirit as Another Go To Person of the Triune God to go to which is hardly supported in scripture at all. John 14:6 & John 10:1

Anyway,, thank you for sharing the link as it does make the claim as being dated back to the first century, and although I can give it a benefit of the doubt as not being part of revisionists historians, it does question if they have been keeping false teachings out of that particular Baptist church.

 

[Adonia]

Jesus at the Last Supper was before the cross and therefore that particular sacrifice wasn't given yet to be participating in which is why Christ's Presence is NOT in the Eucharist when Jesus told them for what they were to do communion for; in remembrance of Him. To make communion for more than what it is... like "holy" communion, is the iniquity of idolatry.

Your idea is totally out of kilter with reality. Who is Jesus? He is God Incarnate on this earth. God cannot be held to one particular time or place - God transcends all time. He can be here, there, and everywhere all at the same time.

What do we have at the Last Supper? We have Jesus (God Incarnate) standing there and he does indeed have the ability to infuse Himself into the Holy Eucharist while He is also present in the flesh BEFORE the supreme sacrifice. He can do what I just described because He is God. No idolatry here friend, just the ultimate in worship of the Savior.

 

[Adonia]

The trick on the Catholic part is that by making that one time sacrifice for sin "made" present each time in the Mass, they are having access to that one time sacrifice for sin to be "received" again so it is being repeated on the receiving end. It is the same as repeating that one time sacrifice for sin on the reception part.

??? Good grief, what on earth are you saying here? You need to give a clearer thought on the matter, this sounds like gobble-de-gook!

 

[Walter]

To answer your OP question - YES.

This thread gives a lot on information.

Thankfully, there are intellectually honest Baptist historians such as James McGoldrick who was once a Baptist successionisr himself. McGoldrick writes:

"Extensive graduate study and independent investigation of church history has, however, convinced [the author] that the view he once held so dear has not been, and cannot be, verified. On the contrary, surviving primary documents render the successionist view untenable. . . . Although free church groups in ancient and medieval times sometimes promoted doctrines and practices agreeable to modern Baptists, when judged by standards now acknowledged as baptistic, not one of them merits recognition as a Baptist church. Baptists arose in the 17th century in Holland and England. They are Protestants, heirs of the reformers." (Baptist Successionism: A Crucial Question in Baptist History [1994], 1–2)

For as convert, John Henry Newman wrote: to be steeped in history, is to cease to be Protestant.

 

[37818]

"The Apostolic authority is solely the Christian New Testament."

Should be easy to find a bible verse that claims so. Bible verse please.

The Christian New Testament was written by whom? Church prophets and some of the Apostles. The Apostle Paul wrote, ". . .Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. . . ." -- Ephesians 2:18-22. Paul also wrote Timothy, ". . . And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. . . ." -- 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

Those who make up the foundation of Christ's church wrote the New Testament. And we have these, and these writings are Apostolic and are the God breathed word along with the Hebrew Bible. Making up a total of 66 books. Other writings are not.the word of God.