Can Non-Cals Explain the Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God?

[tyndale1946]

I know how Cals explain it, is all of God and none of us... Man is passive in the operation of Grace and their is nothing that we can do to make it so... God saves by his will, by his terms and his way... I'm sure my Calvinist brethren will agree that God did not have to save any... We didn't deserve it, we didn't earn it and the Salvation of all Gods children were placed in the Son of God Jesus Christ who stood where we could not... I propose to the Non Cals this question after Adam sinned would God the Father again put the Salvation of all that the Father gave the Son in eternity to save again in the hands of his fallen creation?... In my understanding of scripture it is either grace or works and it can't be both, it is one or the other... So does God wait on the sinner to save him or does the sinner wait on God?... Can man come to God before God changes his heart and brings him or does he come on his own?... The Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God is paramount in my Salvation and in my Calvinist brethren also... But I was just wondering in all that it entails... I know how the Cals understand it but how do the Non Cals explain the Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God?... Or can they?... Saying that there is also a responsibility to God not to get saved, but because being a child of God you are!... Brother Glen

 

[Yeshua1]

I know how Cals explain it, is all of God and none of us... Man is passive in the operation of Grace and their is nothing that we can do to make it so... God saves by his will, by his terms and his way... I'm sure my Calvinist brethren will agree that God did not have to save any... We didn't deserve it, we didn't earn it and the Salvation of all Gods children were placed in the Son of God Jesus Christ who stood where we could not... I propose to the Non Cals this question after Adam sinned would God the Father again put the Salvation of all that the Father gave the Son in eternity to save again in the hands of his fallen creation?... In my understanding of scripture it is either grace or works and it can't be both, it is one or the other... So does God wait on the sinner to save him or does the sinner wait on God?... Can man come to God before God changes his heart and brings him or does he come on his own?... The Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God is paramount in my Salvation and in my Calvinist brethren also... But I was just wondering in all that it entails... I know how the Cals understand it but how do the Non Cals explain the Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God?... Or can they?... Saying that there is also a responsibility to God not to get saved, but because being a child of God you are!... Brother Glen

 

[Yeshua1]

A non Cal would have to admit in the ulimate basis of their salvation is that they decided to accept jesus to save them themselves!

 

[37818]

A non Cal would have to admit in the ulimate basis of their salvation is that they decided to accept jesus to save them themselves!

I am not a Calvinist. I do believe without the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit no one would be saved (1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). I believe everyone's name from eternity is in the book of life because Christ dead for all because all were dead do to sin (2 Corinthians 5:14). In Christ's death and resurrection He bought all, and as such is Lord of all (Romans 14:9-11). And because of this, He will either be one's Redeemer or one's Judge. This is what makes sense to me.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not a Calvinist. I do believe without the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit no one would be saved (1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). I believe everyone's name from eternity is in the book of life because Christ dead for all because all were dead do to sin (2 Corinthians 5:14). In Christ's death and resurrection He bought all, and as such is Lord of all (Romans 14:9-11). And because of this, He will either be one's Redeemer or one's Judge. This is what makes sense to me.

God did n ot intend for the death of Jesus to save all sinners!

 

[37818]

God did n ot intend for the death of Jesus to save all sinners!

Not as Calvinist understand it. Christ only secured salvation of God's elect. But His payment for the sins of the non-elect is to their greater damnation (Romans 14:9-11) He being Lord of all having died for all. Do you have John Owen's "Death of Death in the Death of Christ?" Something John didn't believe but said in his "To the Reader," I do not have that compound question at hand.

 

[utilyan]

I know how Cals explain it, is all of God and none of us... Man is passive in the operation of Grace and their is nothing that we can do to make it so... God saves by his will, by his terms and his way... I'm sure my Calvinist brethren will agree that God did not have to save any... We didn't deserve it, we didn't earn it and the Salvation of all Gods children were placed in the Son of God Jesus Christ who stood where we could not... I propose to the Non Cals this question after Adam sinned would God the Father again put the Salvation of all that the Father gave the Son in eternity to save again in the hands of his fallen creation?... In my understanding of scripture it is either grace or works and it can't be both, it is one or the other... So does God wait on the sinner to save him or does the sinner wait on God?... Can man come to God before God changes his heart and brings him or does he come on his own?... The Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God is paramount in my Salvation and in my Calvinist brethren also... But I was just wondering in all that it entails... I know how the Cals understand it but how do the Non Cals explain the Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God?... Or can they?... Saying that there is also a responsibility to God not to get saved, but because being a child of God you are!... Brother Glen

God commands all mankind not to sin. God commands all mankind to Love God and Neighbor.

And only a select few hear that and conclude by their enlightened gnostic knowledge, he must not want everyone to be saved.

Mocking God to be a deceptive liar. A pagan volcano god who must quench his sadistic appetite. A god who lacks the potency to teach anyone or give them capacity to do anything correctly. That people are greater at being worst students then God is at being a great teacher. The god that failed.


By mouth they teach "Its all God" , But then claim unless the unregenerate person by their own choice COOPERATES to HEAR the gospel, they will not EARN the possibility to be regenerated by God.

How many people who refuse to hear the gospel are regenerated and elect? 0%

How many elect people made the choice to hear the gospel when they were still unregenerated? 100%


Calvinist teach salvation by works. not that any would claim it or want to by intention. Its what happens when someone tries to one-up humility with false humility.


Suppose you got 100 people.

50 refuse to hear the gospel. OUTRIGHT, The minute you say you would like them to hear the gospel, they refuse.

50 others AGREE to hear the gospel.



That first group. 100% of them will NOT RECEIVE FAITH, Based on the FREE CHOICE they made. NO salvation.



2nd group however have EARNED the possibility of REGENERATION/ FAITH / SALVATION.


Was an work necessary? Obviously. If it wasn't then everyone who refuses would have an equal opportunity to receive faith. It was not equal not by a long shot.

GROUP 1 has EARNED IT.

What is basically being claimed by Calvinist unintentionally is God is necessary for salvation but not sufficient, Unless there is cooperation from the evangelist and the hearer of the evangelist

 

[tyndale1946]

God commands all mankind not to sin. God commands all mankind to Love God and Neighbor.

And only a select few hear that and conclude by their enlightened gnostic knowledge, he must not want everyone to be saved.

Mocking God to be a deceptive liar. A pagan volcano god who must quench his sadistic appetite. A god who lacks the potency to teach anyone or give them capacity to do anything correctly. That people are greater at being worst students then God is at being a great teacher. The god that failed.


By mouth they teach "Its all God" , But then claim unless the unregenerate person by their own choice COOPERATES to HEAR the gospel, they will not EARN the possibility to be regenerated by God.

How many people who refuse to hear the gospel are regenerated and elect? 0%

How many elect people made the choice to hear the gospel when they were still unregenerated? 100%


Calvinist teach salvation by works. not that any would claim it or want to by intention. Its what happens when someone tries to one-up humility with false humility.


Suppose you got 100 people.

50 refuse to hear the gospel. OUTRIGHT, The minute you say you would like them to hear the gospel, they refuse.

50 others AGREE to hear the gospel.



That first group. 100% of them will NOT RECEIVE FAITH, Based on the FREE CHOICE they made. NO salvation.



2nd group however have EARNED the possibility of REGENERATION/ FAITH / SALVATION.


Was an work necessary? Obviously. If it wasn't then everyone who refuses would have an equal opportunity to receive faith. It was not equal not by a long shot.

GROUP 1 has EARNED IT.

What is basically being claimed by Calvinist unintentionally is God is necessary for salvation but not sufficient, Unless there is cooperation from the evangelist and the hearer of the evangelist

A change of purpose may, indeed, be an act of wisdom in the rational creature; but it supposes folly in his former conduct, which is inconsistent with consummate perfection. The only wise God had no occasion for second thoughts. As he is wise to perfection, he sees no cause of reversing his purposes. As he is boundless in power, he is subject to no control in executing his will, or in making his people partakers of those blessings he designed for them. To suppose, therefore, that any who were chosen to eternal glory should finally fail of enjoying it, is an imagination absurdly impious; as it suggests a charge of palpable imperfection against JEHOVAH, and would make him altogether such an one as ourselves.

The Reign Of Grace... Abraham Booth (1734-1806)

IOW... In the doctrine of Sovereign Grace on the train to glory you don't punch your own ticket... God alone, saves his own... Brother Glen

 

[Revmitchell]

I propose to the Non Cals this question after Adam sinned would God the Father again put the Salvation of all that the Father gave the Son in eternity to save again in the hands of his fallen creation?..

That is man made philosophy and not a biblical question. Not helpful.


.

In my understanding of scripture it is either grace or works and it can't be both, it is one or the other... So does God wait on the sinner to save him or does the sinner wait on God?..

This assumes your definition of grace and works is correct and fails to prove anything.

. Can man come to God before God changes his heart and brings him or does he come on his own?..

.

Wrong question, it should be can man respond to the gospel?

The Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God is paramount in my Salvation and in my Calvinist brethren also... But I was just wondering in all that it entails... I know how the Cals understand it but how do the Non Cals explain the Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God?... Or can they?... Saying that there is also a responsibility to God not to get saved, but because being a child of God you are!... Brother Glen

God's grace begins at the cross. He further provides grace by sending a preacher to preach the gospel (Romans 10:13-17) The power of God to save is found in the preaching of the gospel. No. further grace needed. (Romans 1:16)

 

[utilyan]

A change of purpose may, indeed, be an act of wisdom in the rational creature; but it supposes folly in his former conduct, which is inconsistent with consummate perfection. The only wise God had no occasion for second thoughts. As he is wise to perfection, he sees no cause of reversing his purposes. As he is boundless in power, he is subject to no control in executing his will, or in making his people partakers of those blessings he designed for them. To suppose, therefore, that any who were chosen to eternal glory should finally fail of enjoying it, is an imagination absurdly impious; as it suggests a charge of palpable imperfection against JEHOVAH, and would make him altogether such an one as ourselves.

The Reign Of Grace... Abraham Booth (1734-1806)

IOW... In the doctrine of Sovereign Grace on the train to glory you don't punch your own ticket... God alone, saves his own... Brother Glen

"but it supposes folly in his former conduct"

How about scripture to back up your philosophy rather then starting with philosophy and then trying to work it in scripture?

1 Corinthians 13

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Scripture says that God's divinity is not dependent on omniscience nor foreknowledge. Nor does God exercise the access of knowledge by common human motivations of fear, instead God himself is the absolute motivation Love.

You see You have made God subject to power or rather your perception of power. So you ponder how does your own idea of absolute power express kindness and mercy, Rather than how does absolute kindness and mercy expresses its power.


"would make him altogether such an one as ourselves."

God is one of ourselves. His name is Jesus Christ.


"God alone, saves his own"

When a guy shoots a family member in the head next to you, he's not "saving" you at all.


A selfish person however would accept a ticket to heaven with the price of torturing their own Mother, let alone Jesus Christ.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

...how do the Non Cals explain the Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God?

God is sovereign in that He and He alone determined and decreed how mankind would be saved. He did so before man was ever created. He was and is firmly in control of the entire process. There is nothing we, as man, can do to change God's plan of salvation.

God's plan of salvation is simply this: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV)

To experience the marvelous grace of God, man has only to accept the gift that God offers. Reaching out and accepting God's gift of eternal life is no more a work than you or me reaching out and accepting a birthday or Christmas gift.

We did absolutely nothing to earn the gift except being loved by the one offering the gift.

That's how this Non Cal would explain the sovereign grace of Almighty God.

 

[TCassidy]

He was and is firmly in control of the entire process.

Even election?

To experience the marvelous grace of God, man has only to accept the gift that God offers.

Why would a man who hates God, can't understand what God is offering, and doesn't want it anyway, accept anything?

Reaching out and accepting God's gift of eternal life is no more a work than you or me reaching out and accepting a birthday or Christmas gift.

So, reaching out is not something you do? And why would you reach out for a box of stinking dung, which is how the lost man views God and His "gift?"

We did absolutely nothing to earn the gift except being loved by the one offering the gift.

Yes, including the fact that we did not reach out for it. We did not embrace Christ. Christ embraced us. All of Him. None of us.

 

[HankD]

I don't often join in here - sometimes. Here is a sometime FWIW.

I find fault with both the supposed Systematic Theologies of their human originators named in this forum.

Personally I believe God is able to retain His Sovereignty and also give not only the "elect" the conviction of sin, the power of reason and the ability to accept/believe on Jesus Christ but all men. I don't like the sound of "free will" ; "the ability to choose" sounds better to me.

Note is able

Not going to debate as I know the arguments inside and out, still cannot reconcile the "opposing" scriptures that have been bandied about here for almost 20 years with no clear victor. Let me know when that happens so I can jump on the correct bandwagon.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Even election?

Why would a man who hates God, can't understand what God is offering, and doesn't want it anyway, accept anything?

So, reaching out is not something you do? And why would you reach out for a box of stinking dung, which is how the lost man views God and His "gift?"

Yes, including the fact that we did not reach out for it. We did not embrace Christ. Christ embraced us. All of Him. None of us.

I'll just stick with my reply, Tom.

 

[Revmitchell]

God is sovereign in that He and He alone determined and decreed how mankind would be saved. He did so before man was ever created. He was and is firmly in control of the entire process. There is nothing we, as man, can do to change God's plan of salvation.

God's plan of salvation is simply this: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV)

To experience the marvelous grace of God, man has only to accept the gift that God offers. Reaching out and accepting God's gift of eternal life is no more a work than you or me reaching out and accepting a birthday or Christmas gift.

We did absolutely nothing to earn the gift except being loved by the one offering the gift.

That's how this Non Cal would explain the sovereign grace of Almighty God.

And it is a good and biblical way to explain it.

 

[TCassidy]

I'll just stick with my reply, Tom.

Can't answer. Rather typical.

 

[HankD]

In my mind, the essential summary question to be answered is to whom in scope (or in particular) does God give the ability to choose Christ (in particular) and why.

Granted - we are helpless and hopeless in our sinful estate without Him.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Can't answer. Rather typical.

You are so predictable, Tom. I could have written your response and had you sign it.

Job 12:2 No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you. (KJV)

 

[TCassidy]

You are so predictable, Tom. I could have written your response and had you sign it.

Too bad you can't answer obvious questions as well as you claim to read my mind. Of course we know why you engage in obfuscation so often.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Too bad you can't answer obvious questions as well as you claim to read my mind. Of course we know why you engage in obfuscation so often.

Being an Administrator, I assumed you could understand how these threads work. The OP asked a question - I answered his question. I have zero obligation to join in your circus of semantics.