Elect or Non-elect?

My two cents:

Isaiah 56 is prophecy ( much of the book of Isaiah is ).
It speaks of many things, but my eye lands on this as standing out:

" even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar;
for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." ( Isaiah 56:7 )

"And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves." ( Mark 11:17 ).

In the Gospels, it's a double prophecy ( ever heard of those? They're really interesting. ), one part being fulfilled then, and the other part being fulfilled after the second coming.
Also note that the second temple, the one that Herod built, had a court for the Gentiles outside the court of Israel ( I believe ), so it really was, in Jesus time here on earth, a house of prayer for all nations.
When He comes again, there will be a temple built by Him and for Him at Jerusalem...and believers will come and go as they please to come up to the mountain of the Lord to worship Him during the Millenium.

" And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it." ( Isaiah 2:2 ) <----- The Temple at Jerusalem, where the Lord shall rule on His father David's throne.

" And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined." ( Isaiah 25:6 ) <----- The Marriage Supper of the Lamb.


Iodebar:

It's still focused on God's people out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ), not all mankind.

Not following me?
I believe in a literal 1,000 years, with the Lord ruling at Jerusalem.
Some of those details are littered all over the Prophets and in Revelation.

But God is still selective in whom He chooses to show His grace and mercy to...and they will rule and reign with Him for 1,000 years.

 

Who was excluded?

 

These are included:

" And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." ( Revelation 19:11-16 )

The ones in verse 15 are excluded.
Those the Lord rules with a rod of iron are those whose natures have not been changed...those who are not saved.
Those who remain on the earth at His coming and are not caught up with Him as He is coming down.


These are included:

" Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." ( Revelation 20:5-6 )

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:48 )

" And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts 2:46-47 )


" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 )


These are excluded:

" He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ( John 3:18 )

" He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." ( John 3:36 ).

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and [my] Father are one. " ( John 10:26-30 )

The ones in verses 27 through 29 are included.

These are excluded:

" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." ( Romans 8:9 )


Here I see that the ones in verse 22 are excluded, while the ones in verses 23 and 24 are included:

" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:22-24 )

" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day." ( Romans 11:7-8 )

The election are included, the rest were blinded and excluded.


True believers = elect = chosen in Him before the foundation of the world = Holy Spirit-indwelt = enduring to the end = "wheat" = keep God's commandments = do not deny Christ = ordained to eternal life = beloved = lively stones = those that have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" = Christ's sheep = vessels of mercy = those that love God from their hearts = saved.

False believers / unbelievers = blind = "dogs" = sorcerers = "tares" = "chaff" = whoseover loves and makes a lie = condemned already = vessels of wrath = those that God's wrath abides on = liars = wolves in sheep's clothing = those that draw near God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him = lost.


I hope that helps to explain things.

 

Thank you. I was wondering where you got that from.

 

Now, exegete those two.

 

no,

 

Anyone can post scriptures. You need to explain them, please.

 

you do it, I suggest Blue Letter Bible.org

 

Calvinist do not believe in salvation or being born again. Salvation implies actually being rescued and in some form of actual danger. In their point of view the elect have never been in any danger at all. They have been chosen from before the foundation of the world. That's the least dangerous place of all, never at all in danger whatsoever. They don't get saved at all. What is anyone who is elect in their point of view in danger or jeopardy of at all? nothing. And there is no being born AGAIN, because again implies you were alive once before. They would claim everyone is dead and never been born the first time around.

 

Can only speak for myself.... I’m elect, thank God.

 

Ahhh.... Then Christ was confused when he told Nicodemious that you must be born again.

 

What is a "Calvinist"?
Someone who believes what God's word says about election, predestination, calling and so forth?
That salvation is by the grace and mercy of God alone ( Romans 9:14-24, Titus 3:4-7 )?

That He chooses some to have an eternal relationship with Him, and judges the rest for their sins in righteous judgment?
Those things I see in Scripture, and not by the teachings of John Calvin.

With respect, I believe in being born again, because Jesus said so ( John 3:3-8 )



God bless you sir.

 

No one reads scripture and figures ahhh Calvinism without someone over the shoulder. Which is why you don't have hearers of the gospels spontaneously becoming Calvinist.


What is a "Calvinist"?

Someone who hears the command of God and still has no clue of what God wants.

God commands all mankind to love God and Neighbor. God commands all to not sin. He doesn't want anyone to go to hell.


I believe the word of God. Not in any twisted Gnostic philosophy.



1 John 3

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Obvious to me. Calvinist don't have a clue who is elect.

Tell us who in the world is the children of God. You can't even tell your own child God loves them, thats sad.

 

A Calvinist is just one who agrees with God that salvation is totally and fully of the Lord from start to finish!

 

Then perhaps you should re-evaluate your above statement, because I do.
With respect, just because you do not see and understand "Calvinism" ( the "TULIP", or "doctrines of grace" ), doesn't mean there is no one that does not.

In this case, majority vote doesn't count, from my perspective.
I didn't need someone to explain it to me; By God's grace, that is what I see without men teaching me the understanding of it.

The God I worship and serve, who saved me strictly by His grace and mercy alone, always gets what he wants.
If He doesn't want someone to go to Hell, then He does not cast them into Hell.

He is willing to cast men into Hell, however:

" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles." ( Romans 9:22-24 )

Scripture says He is willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not squeamish...He doesn't sit on His throne, anxiously awaiting men to make decisions for Him or against Him; He is ready, willing and able to cast mankind ( who are fully responsible for their sin and rebellion against Him ), in addition to the disobedient angels for whom Hell was created, into the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20:11-15 ).

There is nothing reluctant about it.

The God of the Old Testament is the same God in the New...He changes not ( Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8 ).
Read the Psalms for proof on how angry God is with the wicked.

Then to me, you shouldn't have any trouble believing these:



" And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:39-40 )

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 )

" For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:39 )

" And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 )

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 )

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 )

" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:29-30 )

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 )

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )




You should be able to believe the words for the very words' sake, and you should also be able to understand them without anyone looking over your shoulder.


You claim to believe the word of God...what do the above say?

 

Again, I don't adhere to "Calvinism".
To me, that is a label you appear to place on anyone who believes and teaches what the Bible says about election, predestination, calling and so forth.
If I were a "Calvinist", I would be a-millennial, practice and teach infant baptism, and would not believe in what is known as "Particular Redemption"...because for someone to be a Calvinist, one would have to adhere to everything he taught and preached.

Please read John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" for reference.


Respectfully, I read the Bible...I do not read books on "theology".

I know who the elect are, when they manifest themselves.
They are those whose very love and life are Jesus Christ and Him alone.

When they don't show themselves, I don't know.
I also do not know who the elect are, before they are called by the Gospel.

I did that further up the page in this thread, in post # 103.
Here is part of it:

The children of God are those who believe....and everything else that is said of a true believer is included.

That's because, according to God's word, He does not intimately love those who He is casting into Hell.

" Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ( Matthew 7:21-23 )

Jesus Christ will not cast those He intimately knew and loved, into Hell.

" Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" ( Matthew 25:41 )

If I had children, and they believed on Christ during the preaching of His word, then I would tell them that God loves them. If I had children that did not believe on Christ for the remission of their sins, then I would not lie... by telling them that God loves them.

But I would tell them that I love them.


There is no recorded instance anywhere in God's word that an apostle or prophet ever told anyone that God loved them, unless they were under a covenant with Him.
There is nothing in the book of Acts that shows any apostle telling anyone that God loved them until after they had believed.

Paul wrote the epistles to those that God loved...not to those whom God did not love.

If anyone resorts to that type of "gospel preaching" ( by telling someone who has not believed on Christ that "God loves you", like a certain very popular preacher did during the 1950's through the 1990's ) then they are not doing it the way Jesus did or the apostles did.

To me, if someone preaches another Gospel, then they fall under Galatians 1:6-12.
...and that's a very bad place to be.



The Lord does not curse people and condemn them in His wrath, that He loves.
There is no one in Hell that God loves, and no one in Hell that loves God.


But there will be many in Hell that wanted to be saved.
It's just that none of those in Hell would have wanted a genuine relationship with God...they wanted a "fire escape".
They only care about their own hides...obeying out of, "what's in it for me?" instead of, "Thank you Lord, for saving my worthless hide." ( Luke 18:9-14 )


God chooses, changes and we come when we are called.
We love Him, because He first loved us.

 

Spurgeon disagreed with that.

When I refer to myself as a Calvinist, I do so in regards to my view of predestination and election. I do not carry it any further than that.

 

I don't agree with everything Charles Haddon Spurgeon taught and preached.
I do, however, find great solace in the vast majority of what he preached and wrote.


Also, notice that he said, "... unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism".
I happen to believe he was referring to the "doctrines of grace", AKA the "Five Points", not to anything else that Calvin may have taught or wrote on.

At one point, it wasn't called "Calvinism".
In fact, at one point ( during the Council of Trent ), it was called "Anathema".

To clarify, I meant that if I were a strict "Calvinist", I would believe and preach everything that John Calvin preached and taught...with no room for disagreement.
Spurgeon did not believe in infant baptism, did not believe in a-millennialism ( that I know of ) and did believe in "Particular Redemption".

As far as I know, he was a "Baptist" of the "Particular" sort who believed in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ, and that He was coming soon.

I started to refer to myself as one some years ago, until I realized that that is what those who disagree with the biblical teachings of election and so forth, call us.
I no longer do.

I believe God's word...if people want to call me a "Calvinist", then that is for them to do...not me to accept.


May God bless you sir.

 

"The God I worship and serve, who saved me strictly by His grace and mercy alone, always gets what he wants.
If He doesn't want someone to go to Hell, then He does not cast them into Hell."

Does God want you to sin today, tomorrow, or next year?

Let me know if he gets what he wants.



"With respect, just because you do not see and understand "Calvinism" ( the "TULIP", or "doctrines of grace" ), doesn't mean there is no one that does not."

I can cite it to exactly what you want to hear. Want me to do it that way then break it?
All the scripture is perfect. But it doesn't say what you claim it means.



I said:
Utilyan: "You can't even tell your own child God loves them, thats sad"

Response: "That's because, according to God's word, He does not intimately love those who He is casting into Hell."

Sorry to hear about your hell bound child.


"May God bless you sir."

Do you even know what that even means? How do you know God intimately loves me?




"There is no recorded instance anywhere in God's word that an apostle or prophet ever told anyone that God loved them, unless they were under a covenant with Him.
There is nothing in the book of Acts that shows any apostle telling anyone that God loved them until after they had believed."

I hope I'm not mixing up posts here.
I could infer 2 meanings from what you said right here.

Its true there is no recorded instance where God told anyone he loves them unless he's got a covenant.
Meaning he just loves everyone without condition.

I'm going to assume you think God loves people "until after they believe"


Uhh..That is basic Christianity. It is my pleasure to report to you that you are wrong about God being a monster.

Apostle Paul here:

Romans 5

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


On Mars hill to a bunch of pagans.

Acts 17

27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”



Basic Christianity:

Matthew 5

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47“If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Do you Love those who God hates?


Every sense of kindness, mercy, sympathy is God given, authored and breathed.

Romans 2
4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

When kindness doesn't have love or sincerity, we call that evil.


1 John 4

19We love, because He first loved us.


If the condition was for person to love God FIRST. you can forget the cross.



"There is no one in Hell that God loves, and no one in Hell that loves God."

That is the goal. Of course, What evil person think and good person thinks is quite different.

No one in hell.

 

There is no such thing as "basic Christianity".
It is not a religion or tool to attain that which the heart desires...it is a message.
A message from a Saviour to a people that love Him.



There is every word of God ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ) or there is not.
A person either "hears" God's words ( all of them ) or they do not ( John 8:47 ).

The words are spiritual in nature ( John 6:63 ), not carnal.

My God is not a monster...but I can guarantee that He is worth respecting, and He's not someone to trifle with.
A person either knows the God of the Bible, or they do not.

The goal of whom?
God, or men?

God's word specifically states that there are few that find eternal life:

" Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." ( Matthew 7:14 )

Since His efforts result in always having His will done, then that means there are few because He doesn't save everyone; Not because a man's choice makes any difference.



Again, it is my desire that God bless you in everything.
What He does, is up to Him and has always been up to Him ( Daniel 4:35 ).