Elect or Non-elect?

And it can leave a cloud of doubt, depression and uncertainty over a person their whole lives. I recall a teenager in our Christian High School group many, years ago. This young lady came from a staunch Calvinistic background and one day we had an exercise where everyone was to draw a picture of whatever each one thought of God. The picture she drew stuck in my mind for years.

It had her outside with her head tipped up looking at a cloud and on the cloud were the letters G...O...D. On the face of the stick-man (representing her) there wasn't a smile or something showing love but rather a look of fearful fright and on the page in the sky she had put down numbers of question marks. ?????? This is the legacy that IMO Calvinism leaves in it's wake. People having no confidence of being able to believe that anyone truly is on their side or is willing to help. It's not only said but diabolical.

 

"The God I worship and serve, who saved me strictly by His grace and mercy alone, always gets what he wants.
If He doesn't want someone to go to Hell, then He does not cast them into Hell."
"Since His efforts result in always having His will done"


Does God want you to sin today, tomorrow, or next year?

Let me know if he gets what he wants.

 

I'm not seeing any Scripture there, utilyan.
If you've convinced that God does not get what He wants, then please provide clear Scripture that says just that
Apart from that, I only have your opinion.

When it comes to saving someone or damning them, His will is always done.
Please see Romans 9.
You do know the difference between God permitting something, and God over-riding something, don't you?

He permits sin for His own purposes.
He is patient in the face of all lost men sinning because He has a purpose according to election:

" This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in [both] which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." ( 2 Peter 3:1-10 )


He's not waiting for the lost to repent, He is patiently waiting for the fruit of the earth ( James 5:7 ), which are His children.



With that said, utilyan, if you are so inclined, what do these say, in your own words?



" And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:39-40 )

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 )

" For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:39 )

" And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 )

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 )

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 )

" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:29-30 )

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 )

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )


I await your reply, good sir.

 

Scripture.


Jeremiah 19

4“Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent 5and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

Amen to all the scriptures. God indeed can do plenty of good things from wrongs committed of others. He lets sin happen. Yes. that is not my question.

Not at all my point. We are looking at God's WANT and DESIRE. PERIOD.

"The God I worship and serve, who saved me strictly by His grace and mercy alone, always gets what he wants.
If He doesn't want someone to go to Hell, then He does not cast them into Hell."
"Since His efforts result in always having His will done"

You are just furthering the point I made earlier: Someone who hears the command of God and still has no clue of what God wants.

Now answer my question.

Does God want you to sin today, tomorrow, or next year?

I don't think you have a clue.

Let me simplify, does God want you to sin?

 

Here is the passage you just quoted above:

" Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;" ( Jeremiah 19:4 )

I have no idea why you quoted it, as to me, what you're saying doesn't fit what you quoted.
God was dealing with Israel under a covenant of Law.

He knew they would not obey Him, as a nation, which is one of the reasons He sent His Son...to become a man, fulfill the covenant, and then abolish it in favor of a new one.
It was a covenant of Law with earthly blessings and earthly curses...it had nothing to do with eternal life.

Of course they forsook Him...all unregenerate people, whose heart the Lord has not changed, will turn away from Him whom they have not loved from the heart.

But, not all Israel turned away from God ( Romans 11:4-5, Romans 11:7 ), because God reserved to Himself a portion of them, just like the elect angels who did not fall with Lucifer.

If I had to guess, I'd say that you're mocking me.
But, I will not respond in kind because the Lord tells me not to.

No, He doesn't want me to sin. <---- Undoubtedly this will be the only phrase you see in this entire post. The rest you probably won't even focus on.
He wants me to be holy, as He is holy.
But if I do sin, I have an advocate...Christ Jesus the righteous, who sits on the right hand of God, making intercession for me.

However, to me you're confusing the matter of salvation with man's sin.
He allows sin in order to condemn men for them in His wrath, and in order to show His grace to some, eternally through their Saviour.
When He saves, He saves...when He doesn't, He doesn't.
In the end, He gets what He wants.

When I die and He gives me a new body that doesn't war with my spirit and that does not tempt me to sin, He will get that as well...
A son that does not sin; Permanently.

That is the first resurrection.



In addition, if God wants to keep someone from sinning in this life, there are examples in Scripture where He did just that ( Genesis 20:6 ).
He also can do it for His children.


Now, if you are so inclined, please answer the Scriptures I posted above...what do they say?
Take them one at a time if necessary, but please tell me what they say in your own words.

 

"However, to me you're confusing the matter of salvation with man's sin."

No I am making the point God does not ALWAYS get what he wants.


"if God really wanted to keep someone from sinning"

Is God deceptive and faking his want? He wants people to sin?



"No, He doesn't want me to sin.
He wants me to be holy, as He is holy."

He does not want anyone to sin, Which is it, He does or does not? Make up your mind.

So God doesn't get what he wants does he?


"When I die and He gives me a new body that doesn't war with my spirit and that does not tempt me to sin, He will get that as well..."

Excuses, excuses, excuses. You sin because it is YOUR FAULT. God has provided you perfect capacity to never sin again.

1 Corinthians 10

13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.


A person should repent for their wrongs not blame God for it.

 

To me, you're on dangerous ground...
He does according to His will in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth ( Daniel 4:35 ).

He will get what He wants...judgment or mercy, it is His choice.
I think you're forgetting His power...

I sin because my flesh is tainted...and I'm still trapped in it ( Romans 7:14-25 ).

If He wants me to be holy and I'm not, then I'm forgiven...He knows my limitations.
He then gives me the power to overcome sin by his Holy Spirit ( Romans 8:12-14 ), and He gets what He wants...me not sinning.
I then praise Him for His power and grace towards me.

I don't blame God for it.
As His child, I blame my filthy, sin-tainted flesh for it.
Again, see Romans 7, and for more, Galatians 5:17.



Now...are you ever going to answer the verses I posted above, or are you going to keep avoiding them?
I realize you don't owe me anything, but thus far I have tried to answer all your questions...and it seems you keep bringing up more for me to answer.

This is getting pretty one-sided, IMO.




If not, then this is my last reply to you, sir, and may God bless you.

 

Dave my friend please think through on what you're saying. That'd be like saying a law man wants to see people commit crimes so he can have criminals in his jail. And now because his jail is full he can show grace to others and let them off their crimes.

 

You have not answered my question. You are on the fence, Does God want you to sin or not?

"To me, you're on dangerous ground..."

God wants me to tell you that you are wrong. <--Oh look it happened.

So obviously God wants you corrected.


Well I see a typical calvinist machine gun list of verses I will address them. Ill address them. Might need more then one post.

The short answer is I believe what it SAYS. >SAYS<

Not starting with a teaching and then cherry pick and shove it , rewording the verse.


=====
" And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:39-40 )

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 )
===

Now if I put on your glasses, GIVEN = ELECT. Thats shoving your teaching into scriptures, not letting the scriptures speak.

Keep in mind and this should clarify tons is that I believe 100% of people in heaven are "ELECT" and only ELECT go to heaven. But I don't believe GIVEN = ELECT. Case in point:

John 17

12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Judas was given. Judas was lost. Now if want to play never elect in the first place, you can play that game.

I'd prefer it said if he is not in heaven then he is not elect.


Keep in mind there is also a shift on who does the drawing. Whereas you might conclude wrongly that only the father draws limited selection Or that the holy spirit does the drawing, which is never mentioned in scriptures.

John 12

32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Jesus Christ draws all men. He is taking all.

God is not a grammatical or vocabulary idiot. His scripture says all, because he means all.

It means what it says.

This goes on and on:

Take one isolated out of context verse.....AND RUN WITH IT!

Ephesians 1

4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Let me put my Calvinist glasses on:

4 according as he hath chosen us _____ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

There we go.

Lets take the glasses off:

IN CHRIST.

Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Ephesians 2
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,


Part of us is in heaven already, thru Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5

16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you are IN CHRIST, you are born again, New creature, and there is a change of status.

God is reconciling the world, us to himself.

Your view would be the opposite. ---> Jesus is reconciling God to the world.

God has a problem with the sinner, God is angry with the sinner. rather than God has no problem with sinner, The sinner is the one who has a problem with God. He is the one who needs to be reconciled to God.

No one is elect independently, They are dependently IN CHRIST. You are not elect OUTSIDE of Christ.

When you were not IN CHRIST, you were not elect. But now "he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

Let me repeat 100% of people in heaven are ELECT. But I don't believe your election is independent or OUTSIDE of Christ. Its because you came IN CHRIST, you are Elect.


I don't think God said, well schedule here says Dave is elect so he will be IN CHRIST.

No, You came in CHRIST so now you are elect. You past, old self, thrown away: "he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

It doesn't say old thing of the past was you were elect from the beginning. No you picked up Christ's election in Christ.

 

This is my final reply in this thread.

Utilyan, I can see that your understanding of Scripture is very different than mine, and that makes us, unfortunately, unable to walk together...for who can walk together unless they be agreed ( Amos 3:3 )?



For now, we are at odds, continually seeing the other as taking passages of God's word out of context.
Perhaps someday that will change, but, given the history of this subject, I highly doubt it.
I will promise to try and steer clear of you in the hopes of not offending you in the future, but I cannot in all good conscience say that it will be possible to carry that out as fully as I would like to.

I will declare what I believe and why, and I'm sure you will do the same.
At this point, you are free ( and always have been ) to reply to the verses I posted in any fashion you wish...someone else can address, correct, or agree with you after you do, but it will not be me.


Best wishes to you sir, and I hope that you enjoy God's blessings both in your personal life and in the lives of your family.
May you always look to Him in your hour of need, and may you always remember this:

" John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." ( John 3:27 ).

 

Thank you, Dave.

Its always honorable to follow your good conscience even if its against my understanding of things.

If you feel folks lack understanding because they are not elect then I hope you pray to God to elect more folks.

The one thing I'd want you to reflect on is the character of God is he sincere or is he deceptive? To focus on his sincere desire.

When he commands all people to follow his commandments does he REALLY want them to do it?

If God appeared and commands me to sit down its my understanding HE REALLY wants me to do it. I would not dare presume he is joking, faking, or being deceptive of his true desire.

I don't believe a person with a full trust and faith in God could conceive deception and conclude "what God commands is not REALLY what he wants"

I believe his universal command is his true desire. God does not want me to sin ever, and when I do it is my fault without excuse and he is not getting what he wants.

God made these commands and laws for OUR benefit not for the sake of the rules themselves. If you didn't matter indeed he can snap his finger and shove everyone into heaven instantly and no sinning at all. Instead he is patient with you. Life is a classroom, not a courtroom and not a divine lottery.

The one thing I would like for you to pray about, think about, and contemplate is: does the command of GOD tell us sincerely what he WANTS and DESIRES?.

 

God's omniscience is absolute:
". . . According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4.
And in the end the lost are those whose names are not in that book:
". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ." -- Revelation 20:15.
Now it is matter of believing what is actually true, regardless.

 

You are not God. " According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world"
What needs to be emphasized is JESUS. He did not choose us OUTSIDE of Jesus. You do not have an independent election. It is IN HIM, ON JESUS.

Jesus is elect. Are you his equal? Not yet. You are chosen, IN HIM.

We can't just erase "IN HIM"

"According as he hath chosen us before the foundation of the world"



Ephesians 2

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Once you were not elect at all. if you were there was always GREAT HOPE. If you were always elect, Then you have never been saved, because you have never been in danger at all.

No sir, Once you were excluded, nothing to do with the covenant. Does a elect person ever have NOTHING to do with the covenant? Of course he is connected to the covenant.

Does an elect person have GOD? of course elect have God.

"remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."

REMEMBER, YOU had NO HOPE, NO PROMISE, NO COVENANT, WITHOUT , NO GOD.

YOU HAVE ZERO.

13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.


BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS. But NOW you are in Christ Jesus, what where you in before? WITHOUT.

If you were elect from the get-go. Then you were always in christ always had hope, promise, covenant, God, etc.

You need to decrease to recognize the INCREASE That IN Jesus Christ .

 

It was done "before the foundation of the world." I didn't misqoute it. I indicated it has a context ". . . text . . . ."
So stop with false accusations of playing God. "You are not God." Of course not. I know God though, don't you?

Who do you think "us" is in that text? Not you and me? It was certainly that audience and the writer.

The election has two parts, God's before (1 Peter 1:1-2; Ephesians 1:4) And for the elect in time (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14) ". . . from the beginning . . ."

 

The point being avoided it is done IN HIM. IN JESUS. Where you always IN JESUS?

Ephesians 2

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

^The answer is NO. You were not in Jesus. At that >TIME< seperate from Christ.

 

Good point. If there was any >TIME< Christians were separated from Christ and ALL must have been for it says Christians were until the time they were brought near by the blood of Christ...so how can one always have been IN HIM and be separated from him at the same time? It certainly could never have been said if they were always In Him they would have been without hope in the world. Not only would they have had a hope....they would have had a guarantee. So if Cals were correct Paul would have written, And we believers never were without hope for before the foundation of the world God had already determined. Quite clearly it seems he's saying the opposite.

 

I am not a Calvinist. And it is my understanding Jesus as the true vine - everyone is in the vine unless pruned out for not choosing Christ in order to abide in Him (John 15:6; 1 John 3:6).

 

"I am not a Calvinist"
Sorry but do you believe in the doctrines of grace? the TULIP?



The passages are not contradictory. He says "IN ME", repeatedly. He says those who bear fruit get pruned to give more fruit.

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.


Both passages are harmonious nothing about you always kept the commandments and always been abiding in Jesus.

There was a time you did not abide in him, you were SEPARATE Not elect, NO HOPE, NO GOD, No Covenant..

ephesians 2
12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.


The scripture is not against itself.

 

Your understanding is mistaken. I do not hold to the 5 points of Calvinism. I believe all men are lost without faith in Christ. And only by the intervening work of the Holy Spirit sanctifying men can men believe the truth.
I believe that the election is wholly God's and men do not merit it. I believe Christ died for all men because all men are dead in sin. And that Christ secures salvation for His elect and the greater damnation of eternal judgement of those who resist the grace of God. An God who saves also keeps them.

So unless one knows God one does not have eternal life. And one can only know God through His Christ.

Jesus warned about those in the judgment who thought they came from purgatory that they had not done God's will and that He never knew them (Matthew 7:21-23). They were trusting in what they had done.