The church in the OT

[Covenanter]

In a previous thread the discussion ran for 165 posts in just 2 days. The thread was closed before I could contribute. Here's my contribution -

Gen 18:19 “For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.”

The Passover celebrations were family centred, although they were annual. They prefigured the Lord's Supper.

Family gatherings for instruction were given in Deu. 6:1-9. These would seem to be a near equivalent to a local church. There was God's concern for heart circumcision, rather than simple flesh circumcision - Deu. 10:13, 30:6 - indicating personal regeneration.

Ekklesia is used 90 times in the LXX, translated assembly or congregation or gathering, etc, & used as a verbal command e.g.

Deut. 31:12 “Gather the people together, men and women and little ones, and the stranger who is within your gates, that they may hear and that they may learn to fear the LORD your God and carefully observe all the words of this law,​

Malachi is instructive. though he didn't get a mention in the thread. We have the purpose for priests -
7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.
When the priests weren't attending to tabernacle/temple worship they would be in their communities guiding & teaching as Jethro advised Moses in Exo.18.

And then in Mal. 3: God encourages gatherings of those who fear the LORD - one of my favourite passages -
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Synagogue is used in the LXX for various gatherings, the Hebrew often translated as "gathering" or congregation." Synagogues were well established by the dispersed Israelties around the Mediterranean, & in Judea, during the intertestamental period & would seem to have been very similar in worship to church gatherings with reading of the Law & Prophets, Prayers, & singing of Psalms.

Daniel & his friends met for fellowship & prayer.

I think the concept of an OC "local church" comprising faithful believers meeting together on the Sabbath for worship & instruction is consistent with the concept of an NC church. Many of the Psalms are suitable for such worship away from Jerusalem.

 

[Mikey]

What do you mean when you say " OT Church" ? How are you using church here?

I ask because people use this phrase and mean different things.

 

[Reformed]

The classic Reformed understanding of the Old Testament Church is that God has had one called-out people for all eternity. This takes into consideration that Old Testament believers were scattered among different cultural and religious systems. In the New Covenant age the church God still has one called-out people, although their exists local assembles ostensibly made up of professed believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Reformed]

Pneumatology also plays a part in it, since the Holy Spirit became manifest differently at Pentecost.

 

[Covenanter]

What do you mean when you say " OT Church" ? How are you using church here?

I ask because people use this phrase and mean different things.

I think the concept of an OC "local church" comprising faithful believers meeting together on the Sabbath for worship & instruction is consistent with the concept of an NC church. Many of the Psalms are suitable for such worship away from Jerusalem.

 

[Covenanter]

The classic Reformed understanding of the Old Testament Church is that God has had one called-out people for all eternity. This takes into consideration that Old Testament believers were scattered among different cultural and religious systems. In the New Covenant age the church God still has one called-out people, although their exists local assembles ostensibly made up of professed believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is not (I hope) in dispute.

Pneumatology also plays a part in it, since the Holy Spirit became manifest differently at Pentecost.

Feel free to develop that doctrine, particularly with respect to the OT church & church gatherings.

 

[Reformed]

That is not (I hope) in dispute.

That view is not shared by many Dispensationalists.

 

[Yeshua1]

In a previous thread the discussion ran for 165 posts in just 2 days. The thread was closed before I could contribute. Here's my contribution -

Gen 18:19 “For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.”

The Passover celebrations were family centred, although they were annual. They prefigured the Lord's Supper.

Family gatherings for instruction were given in Deu. 6:1-9. These would seem to be a near equivalent to a local church. There was God's concern for heart circumcision, rather than simple flesh circumcision - Deu. 10:13, 30:6 - indicating personal regeneration.

Ekklesia is used 90 times in the LXX, translated assembly or congregation or gathering, etc, & used as a verbal command e.g.

Deut. 31:12 “Gather the people together, men and women and little ones, and the stranger who is within your gates, that they may hear and that they may learn to fear the LORD your God and carefully observe all the words of this law,​

Malachi is instructive. though he didn't get a mention in the thread. We have the purpose for priests -
7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.
When the priests weren't attending to tabernacle/temple worship they would be in their communities guiding & teaching as Jethro advised Moses in Exo.18.

And then in Mal. 3: God encourages gatherings of those who fear the LORD - one of my favourite passages -
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Synagogue is used in the LXX for various gatherings, the Hebrew often translated as "gathering" or congregation." Synagogues were well established by the dispersed Israelties around the Mediterranean, & in Judea, during the intertestamental period & would seem to have been very similar in worship to church gatherings with reading of the Law & Prophets, Prayers, & singing of Psalms.

Daniel & his friends met for fellowship & prayer.

I think the concept of an OC "local church" comprising faithful believers meeting together on the Sabbath for worship & instruction is consistent with the concept of an NC church. Many of the Psalms are suitable for such worship away from Jerusalem.

the OT saved were included into the Body of Christ, the Church, but the Church itself started up on Pentacost!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Gen 18:19 “For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.”

The Passover celebrations were family centred, although they were annual. They prefigured the Lord's Supper.

Family gatherings for instruction were given in Deu. 6:1-9. These would seem to be a near equivalent to a local church. There was God's concern for heart circumcision, rather than simple flesh circumcision - Deu. 10:13, 30:6 - indicating personal regeneration.

The danger with saying that the Church started with Abraham is that Abraham was commanded to put the covenant sign on his infant son. It seems like this is a rather Presbyterian argument.
There is only one people of God, drawn from both old and new covenants, but those people only began to meet together as believers after Pentecost. The huge majority of Israelites were unregenerate (c.f. 1 Kings 19:18; Isaiah 1:9).
I believe in a universal Church that starts with Adam (2nd London Confession XXVI: 1-2), but the local church starts at Pentecost.

 

[HankD]

The Book of Acts gives the historical narrative of the transition from the Old Covenant Temple/synagogue worship to the New Covenant ekklesia worship.

The book of Hebrews the theological transition of the same.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[Covenanter]

The classic Reformed understanding of the Old Testament Church is that God has had one called-out people for all eternity. This takes into consideration that Old Testament believers were scattered among different cultural and religious systems. In the New Covenant age the church God still has one called-out people, although their exists local assembles ostensibly made up of professed believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The danger with saying that the Church started with Abraham is that Abraham was commanded to put the covenant sign on his infant son. It seems like this is a rather Presbyterian argument.
There is only one people of God, drawn from both old and new covenants, but those people only began to meet together as believers after Pentecost. The huge majority of Israelites were unregenerate (c.f. 1 Kings 19:18; Isaiah 1:9).
I believe in a universal Church that starts with Adam (2nd London Confession XXVI: 1-2), but the local church starts at Pentecost.

The Book of Acts gives the historical narrative of the transition from the Old Covenant Temple/synagogue worship to the New Covenant ekklesia worship.

The book of Hebrews the theological transition of the same.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

I don't think you are responding to my OP.
I am concerned with local church gatherings rather than the theology of the Invisible Church. Believers meeting for worship wherever they are. (Mal. 3)

The Invisible Church doesn't gather on earth. We are scattered fellowships.

 

[Mikey]

I don't think you are responding to my OP.
I am concerned with local church gatherings rather than the theology of the Invisible Church. Believers meeting for worship wherever they are. (Mal. 3)

The Invisible Church doesn't gather on earth. We are scattered fellowships.

you use the phrase " OT Church" . this has a number of theological assumptions attached to it. What is the "church" ?

Your OP , at least to me, seems to argue that because there are similarities in the OT with the NT church, therefore the Church existed in the OT. is this what you are saying?

 

[HankD]

I don't think you are responding to my OP.
I am concerned with local church gatherings rather than the theology of the Invisible Church. Believers meeting for worship wherever they are. (Mal. 3)

The Invisible Church doesn't gather on earth. We are scattered fellowships.

Read Acts and Hebrews - use a dispensational study bible.

 

[Jesus Saves!]

Acts 7:38 KJVS
[38] This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

 

[Jesus Saves!]

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 KJVS
[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[John of Japan]

I don't think you are responding to my OP.
I am concerned with local church gatherings rather than the theology of the Invisible Church. Believers meeting for worship wherever they are. (Mal. 3)

The Invisible Church doesn't gather on earth. We are scattered fellowships.

This is not a Baptistic view of the local church. Note all of the things a local Baptist church has or does nowadays (Biblically) that no OT assembly ever had:

1. Jesus as the head of the church, His body
2. Baptism as a testimony of belief
3. The Lord's Supper (not the Passover)
4. The Great Commission
5. Two offices: pastor and deacon
6. Missionaries/apostles
7. Meetings on Sunday
8. The NT to guide it
9. Church discipline as per Matt. 18
10. Etc., etc.

 

[John of Japan]

Acts 7:38 KJVS
[38] This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The Greek word for "church" is ekklesia, as you may know, and it is polysemous (having more than one meaning). It is translated as "assembly" in Acts 19:32, and should have been translated that way in 7:38. The assembly in the wilderness was as different from a NT church as it could be and still be called an ekklesia.

 

[Reformed]

This is not a Baptistic view of the local church. Note all of the things a local Baptist church has or does nowadays (Biblically) that no OT assembly ever had:

1. Jesus as the head of the church, His body
2. Baptism as a testimony of belief
3. The Lord's Supper (not the Passover)
4. The Great Commission
5. Two offices: pastor and deacon
6. Missionaries/apostles
7. Meetings on Sunday
8. The NT to guide it
9. Church discipline as per Matt. 18
10. Etc., etc.

17th Century Particular Baptists did believe in an invisible church:

26.1 The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The also believed in the necessity of the local (or visible) church:

26.5 In the execution of this power wherewith he is so intrusted, the Lord Jesus calleth out of the world unto himself, through the ministry of his word, by his Spirit, those that are given unto him by his Father, that they may walk before him in all the ways of obedience, which he prescribeth to them in his word. Those thus called, he commandeth to walk together in particular societies, or churches, for their mutual edification, and the due performance of that public worship, which he requireth of them in the world.

...and that the local church is to be constituted of professed believers:

26.6 The members of these churches are saints by calling, visibly manifesting and evidencing (in and by their profession and walking) their obedience unto that call of Christ; and do willingly consent to walk together, according to the appointment of Christ; giving up themselves to the Lord, and one to another, by the will of God, in professed subjection to the ordinances of the Gospel.

In the minds of Particular Baptists, the invisible church is simply the sum total of all believers throughout human history. It is nothingness than the whole body of Christ, from the first believer to the last.

I weigh in on this because Particular (Reformed) Baptists are sometimes accused of advocating an authority other than the local church. That is patently untrue.

 

[John of Japan]

17th Century Particular Baptists did believe in an invisible church:

26.1 The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The also believed in the necessity of the local (or visible) church:

26.5 In the execution of this power wherewith he is so intrusted, the Lord Jesus calleth out of the world unto himself, through the ministry of his word, by his Spirit, those that are given unto him by his Father, that they may walk before him in all the ways of obedience, which he prescribeth to them in his word. Those thus called, he commandeth to walk together in particular societies, or churches, for their mutual edification, and the due performance of that public worship, which he requireth of them in the world.

...and that the local church is to be constituted of professed believers:

26.6 The members of these churches are saints by calling, visibly manifesting and evidencing (in and by their profession and walking) their obedience unto that call of Christ; and do willingly consent to walk together, according to the appointment of Christ; giving up themselves to the Lord, and one to another, by the will of God, in professed subjection to the ordinances of the Gospel.

In the minds of Particular Baptists, the invisible church is simply the sum total of all believers throughout human history. It is nothingness than the whole body of Christ, from the first believer to the last.

I weigh in on this because Particular (Reformed) Baptists are sometimes accused of advocating an authority other than the local church. That is patently untrue.

I'm not sure of the relevance of this post, or what you want me to know or answer. The OP and Covenanter's later post make this specifically about the local church, not the "universal" church.

 

[Revmitchell]

Post 18 appears to be plagiarized