The Great Irony

[Revmitchell]

Yes. The "great exchange". Good point.

Christ did take on all that it means to be man (the Incarnation).

Christ did not take on our sin nor our curse at the incarnation. As you know He remained sinless.

I am curious, though, how you reconcile passages that state Christ is God's holy and righteous One and that condemning the righteous is an abomination to God (who also does not "author" sin) with the idea that this is exactly what God did at the Cross?

Scripture says He took on sin. It does not say He took on our curse in that verse. In other words He took on our guilt. Just as we took on His righteousness. Christ became guilty of our sin. Therefore He took on the penalty for our sin.

 

[JonC]

Christ did not take on our sin nor our curse at the incarnation. As you know He remained sinless.

Scripture says He took on sin. It does not say He took on our curse in that verse. In other words He took on our guilt. Just as we took on His righteousness. Christ became guilty of our sin. Therefore He took on the penalty for our sin.

Thanks for the reply. I do know that Christ remained sinless. I also know that God does not create sin (which means He did not literally become or make Himself to be, sin). And yes, in that verse it does not say that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (that was in Galatians 3).

Do you believe that Paul, in Galatians when he says that Christ "became a curse for us", is speaking of something different from Christ "being made sin for us" in 2 Corinthians? If so, what is the distinction between the two (between Christ "becoming a curse for us" and "being made sin for us"?

I ask because I had never really drawn a strong distinction between Paul's words to the two audiences. I thought he was speaking the same idea about Christ's death to these different groups.

Thanks

 

[Revmitchell]

Thanks for the reply. I do know that Christ remained sinless. I also know that God does not create sin (which means He did not literally become or make Himself to be, sin). And yes, in that verse it does not say that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (that was in Galatians 3).

Do you believe that Paul, in Galatians when he says that Christ "became a curse for us", is speaking of something different from Christ "being made sin for us" in 2 Corinthians? If so, what is the distinction between the two (between Christ "becoming a curse for us" and "being made sin for us"?

I ask because I had never really drawn a strong distinction between Paul's words to the two audiences. I thought he was speaking the same idea about Christ's death to these different groups.

Thanks

Being made sin is talking about taking on the guilt, being made the curse is taking on the penalty.

 

[JonC]

Being made sin is talking about taking on the guilt, being made the curse is taking on the penalty.

Thanks for the reply. While I disagree (I do not believe that Christ "took on the guilt" of man, but rather that He bore our sins while remaining (both literally and in theory, or in the consideration of the Father) righteous. The difference is that I believe Christ became the "last Adam", taking on our nature (bearing our sin) and paying the price (or consequences) of sin.

But I do appreciate your take. I can almost see it as Christ taking on our nature (becoming sin) and taking on the wages of sin (becoming a curse). The reason I can't fully take that view is that Paul does not present the curse as the punishment, but rather the consequence (hanging on a tree) is evidence of the curse ("cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree“).

 

[Revmitchell]

Thanks for the reply. While I disagree (I do not believe that Christ "took on the guilt" of man, but rather that He bore our sins while remaining (both literally and in theory, or in the consideration of the Father) righteous. The difference is that I believe Christ became the "last Adam", taking on our nature (bearing our sin) and paying the price (or consequences) of sin.

But I do appreciate your take. I can almost see it as Christ taking on our nature (becoming sin) and taking on the wages of sin (becoming a curse). The reason I can't fully take that view is that Paul does not present the curse as the punishment, but rather the consequence (hanging on a tree) is evidence of the curse ("cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree“).

You seem to presenting the same exact thing in both cases and then calling them different. I am not sure how you are seeing them as different.

 

[JonC]

You seem to presenting the same exact thing in both cases and then calling them different. I am not sure how you are seeing them as different.

I don't see them as different (I believe both are saying the same thing in different ways).

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't see them as different (I believe both are saying the same thing in different ways).

When the father saw Jesus as being the Sin Bearer, as becoming Sin for our benefit, was he not under the wrath of God as a propiation for sins we have done?

 

[Revmitchell]

He bore our sins while remaining (both literally and in theory, or in the consideration of the Father) righteous.

What do you think "bore" means?

The reason I can't fully take that view is that Paul does not present the curse as the punishment, but rather the consequence (hanging on a tree)

How is the consequence not punishment? Makes no sense.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus was cursed by God while hanging on that tree...

 

[JonC]

I believe it means to carry or endure (ἀναφέρω).
The wages of sin could be thought of as a "punishment", but that is not necessarily the case (depending on how one views "punishment").

God became man, came "in the likeness of sinful flesh"; which includes suffering this "punishment", or curse.

 

[JonC]

Jesus was cursed by God while hanging on that tree...

Hanging on the tree was never the cause of the curse. People were first deemed to be cursed and because of this they were hung on a tree.

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe it means to carry or endure (ἀναφέρω).
The wages of sin could be thought of as a "punishment", but that is not necessarily the case (depending on how one views "punishment").

God became man, came "in the likeness of sinful flesh"; which includes suffering this "punishment", or curse.

Punishment for what though exactly, for Jesus would not have died, as he had done no sin!

 

[Yeshua1]

Hanging on the tree was never the cause of the curse. People were first deemed to be cursed and because of this they were hung on a tree.

Jesus was forsaken by God while on that Cross, was that not being under the curse?

 

[JonC]

Jesus was forsaken by God while on that Cross, was that not being under the curse?

Deut. 21 If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, you must not leave the body hanging on the pole. Be sure to remove it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

 

[HankD]

Just stating the obvious by way of reminder.
Our biggest problem is trying to figure out God with human reasoning.

We try to tell ourselves "that just doesn't make any sense for God to do that or to be like that".
And sometimes that works and is logic that is of the truth, however...

Ecclesiastes 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God does allow human reason and logic but there are requirements/qualifications:

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Prayer (maybe fasting) and the word are necessary elements in knowing God,His ways and methods to obtain His will in the time frame that pleases Him.

The Bible is the final authority in all matters of belief and practice because the Bible is inspired by God and bears the absolute authority of God Himself.

Sometimes that defies human logic.

 

[HankD]

Models of atoning sacrifices under the two covenants.

The sacrifices under the law required no "punishment" (no beating, no whipping, no nailing to a cross, etc...) to the victim, the jugular was sliced and the creature was not "punished" but was painlessly bled out and then burned.

Not so with Christ however, the cross was horrific punishment at the hands of both Jew and Gentile alike.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

and Isaiah 53 following...

 

[Yeshua1]

Deut. 21 If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, you must not leave the body hanging on the pole. Be sure to remove it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

Jesus was not guilty of committing a capital offense, but he was found to be the One who bore in Himself the penalty rightfully due us for our committed sins!

 

[Yeshua1]

Models of atoning sacrifices under the two covenants.

The sacrifices under the law required no "punishment" (no beating, no whipping, no nailing to a cross, etc...) to the victim, the jugular was sliced and the creature was not "punished" but was painlessly bled out and then burned.

Not so with Christ however, the cross was horrific punishment at the hands of both Jew and Gentile alike.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

and Isaiah 53 following...

Jesus suffered as none in history ever did, for when he took on the sin debt owed to God, he experienced Hell and being forsaken, while still remaining the spotless Lamb of God!

 

[JonC]

Models of atoning sacrifices under the two covenants.

The sacrifices under the law required no "punishment" (no beating, no whipping, no nailing to a cross, etc...) to the victim, the jugular was sliced and the creature was not "punished" but was painlessly bled out and then burned.

Not so with Christ however, the cross was horrific punishment at the hands of both Jew and Gentile alike.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

and Isaiah 53 following...

One also has to ask whether the OT sacrifice was man acting the role of God (pointing to what God would do on the cross) or the law pointing to human sin (pointing to how God would bring about redemption).

 

[JonC]

Jesus was not guilty of committing a capital offense, but he was found to be the One who bore in Himself the penalty rightfully due us for our committed sins!

He became man. Man was under the curse (read Genesis 3).