The Great Irony

[HankD]

God forgives and restores, only human beings seem to have that privilege.

Restores to good standing, fellowship.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hey MM.

To clarify, that was not a caricature. The first two paragraphs are how I view the Theory of Penal Substitution. The second two are my conclusions based of the first two.

It was your last two paragraphs that appeared to me to be a caricature of what had gone before, but let it pass.

Reading your explanation I agree with every verse you have provided. I especially like that you have included Hebrews 7:22 (I think I've posted all of this before except for that reference).
Absolutely Christ became our Surety. This is not only stated in Scripture but it is implied in the Incarnation. Christ bore our sins. And Christ is the "last Adam", pointing not only to the Resurrection but to ours in Him.

Thank you. I also spoke of Christ's identity with His people through the Everlasting Covenant.

I would appreciate your feedback specifically on my presentation of the Theory (I borrowed from RC Sproul on the Ligonier Ministries website):

The great problem (to be solved) of Penal Substitution Theory is how God can deal with human sin and yet still justify men without making God unjust. Man has disobeyed God, treating God as if He were man’s equal….or worse….by elevating man’s will over God’s. Man has treated God as unholy and this is an eternal offense because God is an eternally holy and just God.

The great solution of Penal Substitution is that God Himself became man in order to take upon Himself the punishment due mankind. This way God fulfills the requirements of divine justice by punishing Christ (essentially by punishing Himself….as Y1 says – God punching Himself) for man’s disobedience. Having expended his wrath God is free to forgive man (men to whom no more wrath is due).

And thank you in advance for your insight.

I think it's fine. It isn't precisely the language that I would have used; and we must be careful of speaking of God punishing Himself lest we fall into the error of Patripassionism. I would also like to see the concept of 'satisfaction' in the definition, but it's good.

I'm wondering: Would those of the Penal Substitution Theory be willing to say that the punishment that Christ received was counted by the Father as the punishment we should have received.

The Scripture doesn't say so. Also, we must get away from the idea of Christ I would sooner say that the justice of God was satisfied by the suffering and death of Christ.

Somewhere on the thread, you also said that Penal Substitution is about Man rather than about God. I disagree profoundly.
In his book, The Satisfaction of Christ, A.W. Pink speaks of the Efficacy of the Atonement under these headings:
The Purpose of God
The Covenant of God
The Veracity of God
The Power of God
The Justice of God
The Government of God
The Glory of God.
You can read it on line. I will post a link later.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You can read it on line. I will post a link later.

The book, The satisfaction of Christ by A.W. Pink is published by Pietan Press. there doesn't seem to be an ISBN number.
It is also available on line. The chapter on the 'efficacy of the Atonement' can be found here: CHAPTER - THE ATONEMENT — ITS EFFICACY
The first six or seven paragraphs are a diatribe against Arminianism, so readers may want to scroll down to 1. The Purpose of God.

The whole book is a wonderful extended treatment of the Atonement. I thoroughly recommend it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Scripture doesn't say so. Also, we must get away from the idea of Christ I would sooner say that the justice of God was satisfied by the suffering and death of Christ.

Something of what I wrote here seems to have disappeared. what I thought I wrote (or meant to write) is

"Also, we must get away from the idea of Christ 'being punished by God.' The sins of His people were punished by God in Christ (Isaiah 53:4-6). We must get away from the idea of God 'pouring out His wrath upon Christ.' I would sooner say that the justice of God was satisfied by the suffering and death of Christ."

Christ never ceased to be the beloved Son.

 

[Yeshua1]

His theory of justice was that those conditions being met it was just not to have the guy jailed (the judge sets both types of punishment). The idea you are speaking of was a reformation of Aquinas' position (and I think better suited for today's type).

Personally, I do look at it differently than both you and brother Aquinas.

Suppose you stomp on my foot. I can forgive you or retaliate. It is a personal affront to me. If I forgive you this is a mercy and neither of us suffers loss. If I stomp on your foot you've got what you deserve. I will not forgive you except you change from a foot stomper to a foot washer. I believe God has this power to forgive.

The biggest difference, I think, with your illustration is that you present the offence as being against the law (which demands punishment even if restitution had been paid for the theft). I view the offence as personal and against a person.

In Atonement, your theme seems to view sin as against the Law (therefore divine justice must he satisfied for God to forgive) and Christ satisfied the legal "sin debt" the Law held against us.

I view sin as against God (therefore God is just to punish or forgive, but is faithful to forgive those who turn to Him) and redemption through Christ a manifestation of God's righteousness apart from the law (repentance being a rebirth through faith in Christ).

Please correct me if I misspoke (mistyped) about your view.

Sin is the breaking of the law of God, it is against His holy nature. and God just cannot pronounce us no longer guilty because he wants to, or as an Act of Love, as someone must pay the price and atone for sin!

 

[Yeshua1]

Ezekiel 18:19-21 NKJV
“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. [20] The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. [21] “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.



Isaiah 53:10 NKJV
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

The question is - if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps God's statutes and does what is lawful and right, will he surely live or die? What is the key - repentance or punishment?

The first passage refers to them avoiding the capital punishment for capital crimes committed, but nothing to do with spiritual aspect of sinning, as even if someone could live perfect, which only Jesus could do, they still must have atonement for their sin guilt imputed them from fall of Adam!

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you have a verse to support this?

I realize Christ is sinless and we are not. But it seems to me Scripture speaks as if Christ took on our nature and shared our infirmity.

Thanks.

Jesus did NOT inherit our sin nature, for if he had, then he was not qualified to be the Messiah!

 

[JonC]

Sin is the breaking of the law of God

Or, breaking the law of God is sin (and no, these are not saying the same thing).

 

[Yeshua1]

Seems both man and God are involved in the sacrifice of Christ...

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

I'm wondering: Would those of the Penal Substitution Theory be willing to say that the punishment that Christ received was counted by the Father as the punishment we should have received.

Jesus received from the Father what was due to us as sinners!

 

[JonC]

Jesus did NOT inherit our sin nature

I agree. He took upon Himself our human nature.

 

[Yeshua1]

It was your last two paragraphs that appeared to me to be a caricature of what had gone before, but let it pass.

Thank you. I also spoke of Christ's identity with His people through the Everlasting Covenant.

I think it's fine. It isn't precisely the language that I would have used; and we must be careful of speaking of God punishing Himself lest we fall into the error of Patripassionism. I would also like to see the concept of 'satisfaction' in the definition, but it's good.

The Scripture doesn't say so. Also, we must get away from the idea of Christ I would sooner say that the justice of God was satisfied by the suffering and death of Christ.

Somewhere on the thread, you also said that Penal Substitution is about Man rather than about God. I disagree profoundly.
In his book, The Satisfaction of Christ, A.W. Pink speaks of the Efficacy of the Atonement under these headings:
The Purpose of God
The Covenant of God
The Veracity of God
The Power of God
The Justice of God
The Government of God
The Glory of God.
You can read it on line. I will post a link later.

In order to allow God to have His Holiness and justice satisfied, someone must pay to Him the debt owed Him in order to have God satisfied, and still do not see How God can freely justify a lost sinner if Pst is not right!

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree. He took upon Himself our human nature.

he took upon Himself the SAME humanity as Adam had before the Fall!

 

[HankD]

Sin is the breaking of the law of God, it is against His holy nature. and God just cannot pronounce us no longer guilty because he wants to, or as an Act of Love, as someone must pay the price and atone for sin!

What is your scripture(s).

Not saying they do not exist but to what scripture do you appeal?

 

[HankD]

Jesus did NOT inherit our sin nature, for if he had, then he was not qualified to be the Messiah!

Some folks like to say that Jesus could not be perfectly human if He did not receive the sin nature and that He overcame it which qualifies Him as Messiah.

 

[Yeshua1]

What is your scripture(s).

Not saying they do not exist but to what scripture do you appeal?

Isaiah 53
I Peter 2:21-24

 

[Yeshua1]

Some folks like to say that Jesus could not be perfectly human if He did not receive the sin nature and that He overcame it which qualifies Him as Messiah.

The scriptures though state that Jesus had no sin nature in Him, as the Virgin Birth allowed Him to bypass the Fall of Adam. and why would God need to overcome sinning, as it was impossible for Jesus to ever have sinned! Been tempted yes, but would not be able to sin!

 

[HankD]

Isaiah 53
I Peter 2:21-24

1 Peter 2
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Great!

Were the "stripes" Christ received "Punishment" or "Payment"?

 

[Yeshua1]

1 Peter 2
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Great!

Were the "stripes" Christ received "Punishment" or "Payment"?

Think that refers to Jesus bearing the wrath of God due to all of us!

 

[HankD]

Think that refers to Jesus bearing the wrath of God due to all of us!

Its almost a kind of hybrid between Punishment and Payment.

 

[Yeshua1]

Its almost a kind of hybrid between Punishment and Payment.

Jesus bore in Himself our due punishment, and thus paid for our sin debt!