He was misapplying that passage, as Calvinists do indeed teach that we need to present to all sinners Jesus as Savior, and the elect shall respond by faith!Except when a Calvinist like Jay Adams in Competent to Counsel says you should never tell lost people that Christ died for their sins, because you don't know if they're elect--in spite of the fact that the Gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-8) distinctly says, "Christ died for our sins...." So I guess a consistent Calvinist could never quote the Gospel in 1 Cor. 15 to a lost person.
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Best One-Volume Systematic Theology?
- Thread starter Mikey
- Start date
His problems areas are in how he describes the eternal subordination of the Son, and in charismatic gifts for today!
IMO, noone should read Karl Barth unless they are very very solid. He is the Father of Neoorthodoxy and very wordy.
JMO
JMO
Would you tell a lost sinner, "Christ died for our sins," as the Bible says?
Yeah, I tried to read the Institutes once, but found the work to be not only incredibly boring but incredibly mixed up. A theologian I know agreed with me. Calvin wrote it when he was very young, so that explains that.Oh ya, by the Calvinist-in-Chief, although not named "Systematic Theology")
Institutes of the Christian Religion (2 Volumes) John Calvin, Eerdmans,1953.
Yes I have it in my random access Paper and Ink Library
Mikey
Active Member
Why is this a problem?
Perhaps you want to discuss these on this thread? Eternal Subordination of the Son. Biblical?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I realize the question wasn't aimed at me, but I would answer this:
" No, I would not."
I see no place in all of Scripture the statement, " Christ died for your sins" ever being made to unbelievers.
Objectively, I see it only found in the epistles ( Romans 4:25, 1 Corinthians 15:1-7, Galatians 1:4, 1 Peter 2:24, 1 John 2:2 ) and statements that were written to those who have already believed or that the context is or was God's people ( Isaiah 53, Hebrews 5:3 ) alone.
Check it out, and see if what I am saying is true or false.
If false, then please point it out to me, and I will heed the correction.
What I would tell them this:
"You're a sinner.
Christ died and rose again.
Whosoever believes on Him for the remission ( forgiveness ) of their sins, shall have everlasting life."
1) Plow the ground with the Law, from Scripture.
2) Plant the seed of Christ as Saviour, from Scripture.
3) Stand back and watch to see what the Holy Ghost does.
As for "systematic theologies"...
To me, they are all fine and good as an expression of someone's personal understanding of Scripture...but they hold no real authority for me ( as I'm sure many on this forum would state ).
With some people, they seem to occupy some sort of secondary place on their shelf next to their Bible, but I think going directly to the source ( God's word ) serves a person far better.
Admittedly, in the past I have found some things in them that seem to help, but ultimately, God is my Teacher ( 1 John 2:27 ), so I now rely on Him alone to show me the truth on any subject.
With respect, I also put no stock in "bible colleges" nor "systematic theologies", as both, in my estimation, are man's ways of conveying individual or group understandings of Scripture and not God's way.
For those who support such things, ask yourself this question:
Why is the Bible the only book that seems to need whole academic institutions built around it?
It didn't need a school during the first century.
The "school" was the local assembly, and the Teacher was the Holy Ghost through His ministers.
Here's a statement I saw or heard somewhere:
" I prefer to go to the well and dip with my own ladle, than to drink out of another's."
May God's grace be in abundance you all.
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So you had better forbid any lost person from reading 1 Cor., because they'd get the wrong idea. They would read Paul saying, "Christ died for our sins," and might think, "Wow, He died for my sins, since I'm part of 'our,' so I can get saved!"
Here's the logic: We are to give the Gospel to "every creature" in the world. Paul describes the Gospel in 1 Cor. 15:1-8. Therefore, through Paul we know what the Gospel we are to give is. So we tell the world what Paul said is the Gospel. Period, end of story.
No offense, but I've studied and translated all of those verses, and taught most of them in Japan, and don't need to "check it out."
And I've studied and argued about Calvinism since 1972, and have no desire to discuss it here on the BB other than that one point I made to Yeshua1 (and now you). I still find the theology to be unbiblical.
P. S. You are presupposing that all who was allowed to read 1 Cor., 1 Peter, 1 John in the first century were saved. "My, my, we mustn't let any unbeliever read these precious books, lest they think they can get saved." Really? I can't imagine that happening.
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I don't think that YECs have a systematic theology since the Enlightenment....
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I would never forbid anyone from reading God's word.
I have no idea who Christ's sheep are ( until they believe ), because God looks on the heart that He alone has created within a person, and I can only look on the outside.
I would never tell just anyone that Christ died for them unless they have already believed.
I would never tell anyone that God loves them, unless they have already believed.
Example:
" But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." ( Romans 5:8-11 )
These truths were written to and for believers, not unbelievers.
Lastly, nobody "gets saved"; they either are saved, or they are not ( 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 John 3:10 ).
One does not start out their existence being a child of the Devil, and then changing sides.
Sheep don't become goats and goats don't become sheep.
No "logic" involved.
The Gospel is to be preached...but with all due respect, I think we differ on what the actual Gospel really is, and how it's to be preached.
The man of God, who has been fitted out to preach the Gospel ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ) does so knowing that God's will be done, and that whoever truly believes, does so because God caused it ( Psalms 65:4, John 6:44, John 6:64-65, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-13, Ephesians 2:8-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
We who would be God's preachers are to preach the Gospel to every creature, and whosoever believes, has eternal life.
If that perspective offends you, then it's probably best that we are not in fellowship together, good sir.
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So what is the Gospel that you preach if it is not what Paul said in 1 Cor. 15?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
IF I were a preacher, I would preach what Peter, Paul and others preached in the book of Acts, exactly as they preached it.
1 Corinthians 15:1-7 is for believers, which is who he is addressing here:.
" Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ." ( 1 Corinthians 1:1-3 )
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Then with respect, we have nothing more to speak of.
What you call "Calvinism" is taught in Scripture.
Where do you think I got it?
Men?
I've never read the "Institutes", and never was exposed to it apart from God's word.
With respect, I learned "it" from reading Scripture alone.
I wish you well, and may God bless you.
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For crying out loud, you are missing the resurrection of Christ!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I believe that you are misunderstanding me.
Acts of the Apostles 2:29-36. <-------Peter here is preaching Christ crucified and His resurrection, and he's preaching to the Jews ( Acts of the Apostles 2:5 ), indiscriminately.
Acts of the Apostles 13:26-49 <------- Paul here is preaching to both Jews and Gentiles indiscriminately, and only those that were ordained to eternal life, believed.
Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31 <----- Paul here is speaking of the resurrection, and he's preaching indiscriminately to Gentiles.
1 Corinthians 15:1-7 <------- Paul here is preaching discriminately, to believers only. Notice the difference in what is being said, and what is not being said. Notice the level of information being told to them. Notice how personal and selective he gets, versus how he preached in the book of Acts, when he was preaching indiscriminately.
He tells them that Christ died for their sins...he never tells anyone in the book of Acts who Christ died for and who God loves.
He only developed those details in the epistles to the churches.
With Peter, it was the same way.
With John, it was the same way.
For example:
1 John 2:2 is addressed to believers, not unbelievers:
" My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world." ( 1 John 2:1-2 )
John, one can preach the Gospel and the word of God without telling the world-at-large what was written specifically for believers...the contents of the epistles, which were written to the churches, not to anyone else.
If you think it's proper to preach the epistles to everyone ( believer and unbeliever alike ), then that is your prerogative; But I personally wouldn't preach those precious truths to just anyone.
As I see it, it's far safer for me, if I were a preacher, to tell people strictly what the apostles told the crowds indiscriminately, than to mix in the parts from the letters to the churches.
...and that is where our personal theologies differ.
However, I assure you that I didn't learn these things from a "systematic theology", though many on this forum would charge me with such.
I read it and understood it strictly out of God's word, by His grace.
This is my last post to you in this thread.
May He always be in the forefront of your mind, sir, and may you always be assured of your deliverance in times of trouble.
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Funny you should ask that. I preached on 1 Corinthians 15 this morning.
Yes, I would say that, with the understanding that 1 Corinthians is written to the church at Corinth, and a church is, in my understanding, an organized assembly of baptized believers.
However, neither would I hesitate to tell a lost sinner that God loved them for I believe that God loves all of His creation, but not necessarily in a salvific sense. God is so much bigger than we are that His love can contain nuances we are incapable of imagining, let alone understanding. He is able to perfectly love, and perfectly hate, the same thing or same person at the same time. I can't fully understand that, but His ways are higher than my ways.
Well of course he can 'get saved,' except, of course, that no one 'gets saved' in the Bible; God saves people by grace through faith. But 'whosoever will' may come to Christ in repentance and faith, and He will by no means cast them out (John 6:37). And when he comes, he will be part of 'our' and that's OK.
We are indeed to preach the Gospel to every creature, and I write that as a five-point Calvinist. The Gospel, however, is not that Christ died for everybody's sins-- that's not what the text says. He died for our sins, the sins of believers, and as and when someone turns from his sins and trusts in Christ for salvation, he can know that He died for his sins also.
Good answer, Sir, and I thank you. I know that you are a Gospel preacher.Funny you should ask that. I preached on 1 Corinthians 15 this morning.
Yes, I would say that, with the understanding that 1 Corinthians is written to the church at Corinth, and a church is, in my understanding, an organized assembly of baptized believers.
However, neither would I hesitate to tell a lost sinner that God loved them for I believe that God loves all of His creation, but not necessarily in a salvific sense. God is so much bigger than we are that His love can contain nuances we are incapable of imagining, let alone understanding. He is able to perfectly love, and perfectly hate, the same thing or same person at the same time. I can't fully understand that, but His ways are higher than my ways.
Of course they get saved. That's the passive of sozo, and it occurs over and over.Well of course he can 'get saved,' except, of course, that no one 'gets saved' in the Bible; God saves people by grace through faith. But 'whosoever will' may come to Christ in repentance and faith, and He will by no means cast them out (John 6:37). And when he comes, he will be part of 'our' and that's OK.
Thanks. Gotta run.
Perhaps that's a transatlantic language thing. To me the passive of sozo is 'is/are saved' (by grace, through faith) and 'get saved' is active, like 'get lunch.'