Young Earth - Old Earth

[robycop3]

Is the earth only some 6K years old, or is it some 4.5 billion years old? What about the "gap theory"? May we have a "peaceful" discussion about it, free of ad-hominem & "heretic" accusations by either side?

I'll open this: I'm an "old-earther", based upon the many empirical proofs God has placed at our disposal & allowed or even caused us to discover, such as the speeda light & the fact that many stars or galaxies are so far away that it takes their light millions of years to reach us. (While we can slow light down, we cannot speed it up more than its usual travel speed of over 186K miles per second. Electricity & most rays of energy other than light move at this same speed; none faster.)

And Scripture says God worked on an ALREADY-EXISTING earth!
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was[a]formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
a - or"waste & empty"

So, we see God re-modeled an already-existing earth!

There is much more empirical evidence indicating a great age for the earth & the universe. I only gave two of them to open the discussion.

 

[HankD]

Is the earth only some 6K years old, or is it some 4.5 billion years old? What about the "gap theory"? May we have a "peaceful" discussion about it, free of ad-hominem & "heretic" accusations by either side?

I'll open this: I'm an "old-earther", based upon the many empirical proofs God has placed at our disposal & allowed or even caused us to discover, such as the speeda light & the fact that many stars or galaxies are so far away that it takes their light millions of years to reach us. (While we can slow light down, we cannot speed it up more than its usual travel speed of over 186K miles per second. Electricity & most rays of energy other than light move at this same speed; none faster.)

And Scripture says God worked on an ALREADY-EXISTING earth!
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was[a]formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
a - or"waste & empty"

So, we see God re-modeled an already-existing earth!

There is much more empirical evidence indicating a great age for the earth & the universe. I only gave two of them to open the discussion.

Eh, God delights in showing "empirical evidence" to be ofttimes untrustworthy.

e.g. The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
His Virgin Birth... etc.

Yes Young Earth here.

 

[Yeshua1]

Eh, God delights in showing "empirical evidence" to be ofttimes untrustworthy.

e.g. The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
His Virgin Birth... etc.

Yes Young Earth here.

I am a Younger earth, not exactly 6, 000, but by FAR less than millions, much less Billions of Years!

 

[robycop3]

Another OE clue: I live near the Appalachian Mts, & upon either side of almost any road cut thru one of them, we see many layers of different kind of rock. We can alse see that rock once rose much-higher than it is now. In fact, the Appys were once as high as the Rockies. But they've been eroded 'WAY down!

Now, had that erosion occurred rapidly, there'd be no soil upon those mountains, nor any soil left in the valleys & "hollers" between the hills. Also, the rocks would be broken in many places. But the soil layers, quite-thick on many of those hills, shows a gentle, gradual erosion that took millions of years.

 

[robycop3]

Another OE clue: the famous DEVIL'S TOWER in Wyoming, featured in the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind.(1977) It's the remains of the crater of a small volcano. The tower is composed of porphyritic phonolite, which is a heavier,harder igneous rock than ordinary volcanic pumice, and is often found in the necks of active volcanoes.As time passed, the volcano became extinct, & the softer rock around the neck of the dead volcano eroded away. This took MILLIONS of years, as a quick, violent removal of the surrounding rock woulda destroyed the tower. (The tower is 867 feet high from its base.)

As I said in the OP, GOD provides empirical evidence for an OE.

 

[Yeshua1]

Another OE clue: I live near the Appalachian Mts, & upon either side of almost any road cut thru one of them, we see many layers of different kind of rock. We can alse see that rock once rose much-higher than it is now. In fact, the Appys were once as high as the Rockies. But they've been eroded 'WAY down!

Now, had that erosion occurred rapidly, there'd be no soil upon those mountains, nor any soil left in the valleys & "hollers" between the hills. Also, the rocks would be broken in many places. But the soil layers, quite-thick on many of those hills, shows a gentle, gradual erosion that took millions of years.

Or under the effects of a world wide Flood!

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Eh, God delights in showing "empirical evidence" to be ofttimes untrustworthy. e.g. The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. His Virgin Birth... etc.

Regardless of your stance, these miracles don't really address the issue. You are not suggesting a medical exam would have shown Mary had been known by a man, nor are you saying that Jesus did not die or was not bodily raised from the dead. Though miracle was involved, these happened in normal time. Mary carried to term. Jesus went through all stages as man, suffered on the cross, and experienced death.

Oh, Merry Christmas (and Happy Easter)!

 

[Deacon]

Eh, God delights in showing "empirical evidence" to be ofttimes untrustworthy.

Interesting observation, Hank.
Others have made similar observations but drawn different conclusions.
John Walton, (who supports a 7-“day” creation) uses the observation of quirky physical evidences and recognizes that Scripture accomodates to the scientific beliefs of the people to whom it was addressed.
The Bible was not written to us, it was written for us.

The Bible Contains No New Revelation About the Workings and Understanding of the Material World
“In God’s revelation to Israel, he did not give them a more advanced understanding of the moon in accordance with its material nature. Instead he communicated in terms of what they knew”
John H. Walton, The Lost World of Scripture, page 49.
​

Rob

 

[JonC]

I tend to affirm a young old earth view.

(Creation in its infancy was not an infant Creation....Adam created as an adult, chickens before eggs, trees with rings, etc).

 

[HankD]

Indeed the miracles of the bible defy the findings of empirical evidence.

e.g. wine normally takes 2-3 years to produce following the natural laws of nature (grow grapes, harvest, squeeze, age, bottle, market).

Jesus did it instantaneously.

Loaves and fishes?

Universe?

 

[church mouse guy]

Another OE clue: the famous DEVIL'S TOWER in Wyoming, featured in the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind.(1977) It's the remains of the crater of a small volcano. The tower is composed of porphyritic phonolite, which is a heavier,harder igneous rock than ordinary volcanic pumice, and is often found in the necks of active volcanoes.As time passed, the volcano became extinct, & the softer rock around the neck of the dead volcano eroded away. This took MILLIONS of years, as a quick, violent removal of the surrounding rock woulda destroyed the tower. (The tower is 867 feet high from its base.)

As I said in the OP, GOD provides empirical evidence for an OE.

AiG points out the scientific problems connected with OE geology of Devils Tower.

"If we approach the evidence with the idea that the earth is millions of years old, we are left with inconsistencies. If Devils Tower had been exposed through slow erosion of the land, numerous things about the tower would be different. First, the formation would have mostly likely eroded completely away since we can observe it eroding even today. Secondly, the formation would have cracked and broken apart due to the constant freezing and thawing occurring each year over millions of years. Lastly, the top of Devils Tower would be dramatically smaller than its base, as erosion slowly exposed more and more of the tower. These visible contradictions speak against the evolutionary interpretation of the evidence and confirm the Biblical age of just a few thousand years."

 

[church mouse guy]

Is the earth only some 6K years old, or is it some 4.5 billion years old? What about the "gap theory"? May we have a "peaceful" discussion about it, free of ad-hominem & "heretic" accusations by either side?

I'll open this: I'm an "old-earther", based upon the many empirical proofs God has placed at our disposal & allowed or even caused us to discover, such as the speeda light & the fact that many stars or galaxies are so far away that it takes their light millions of years to reach us. (While we can slow light down, we cannot speed it up more than its usual travel speed of over 186K miles per second. Electricity & most rays of energy other than light move at this same speed; none faster.)

And Scripture says God worked on an ALREADY-EXISTING earth!
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was[a]formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
a - or"waste & empty"

So, we see God re-modeled an already-existing earth!

There is much more empirical evidence indicating a great age for the earth & the universe. I only gave two of them to open the discussion.

Assuming for the moment that the speed of light is constant and that the universe is 14.5 billion years old, then there has not been enough time for light to go from one end of the universe to the other end.

 

[37818]

Zircon crystal uranium dating of a meteorite gives us the 4.5 billion years for the age of the Earth.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Indeed the miracles of the bible defy the findings of empirical evidence. e.g. wine normally takes 2-3 years to produce following the natural laws of nature (grow grapes, harvest, squeeze, age, bottle, market). Jesus did it instantaneously.
Loaves and fishes? Universe?

This seems a bit better, as the time element changes, but the problem remains. Would superficial apparent age bear up under scientific scrutiny? For example, would the normal flaws due to aging, processing, parasites, etc., be present? This might pose some problems regarding man in the pre-Fall Garden, but much less so outside.

There is no good reason to assume the evidence of miracle was erased. It is just as reasonable to assume that whatever miracle happened would leave direct evidence. In this case, Adam, who superficially appeared say 20 years old, would test as new. But as a real biblical case, consider the leprous Naaman. When he was healed “his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean,” (2 Kings 5:14b).

 

[church mouse guy]

Zircon crystal uranium dating of a meteorite gives us the 4.5 billion years for the age of the Earth.

Is there a chain of custody to show that the rate has always been the same or is that assumed?

 

[37818]

Is there a chain of custody to show that the rate has always been the same or is that assumed?

Do you know why the half life is presumed to be a constant?

 

[church mouse guy]

Do you know why the half life is presumed to be a constant?

No, why is it presumed to be a constant for the last 4.5 billion years?

 

[HankD]

This seems a bit better, as the time element changes, but the problem remains. Would superficial apparent age bear up under scientific scrutiny? For example, would the normal flaws due to aging, processing, parasites, etc., be present? This might pose some problems regarding man in the pre-Fall Garden, but much less so outside.

There is no good reason to assume the evidence of miracle was erased. It is just as reasonable to assume that whatever miracle happened would leave direct evidence. In this case, Adam, who superficially appeared say 20 years old, would test as new. But as a real biblical case, consider the leprous Naaman. When he was healed “his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean,” (2 Kings 5:14b).

Adam/Eve DNA might bring a surprise today?

 

[church mouse guy]

Adam/Eve DNA might bring a surprise today?

It would be the same as yours except with mutatations. Eve is considered the most beautiful woman ever, and I think that Adam was the most intelligent man and probably the strongest, but I don't know if that is right.

 

[HankD]

It would be the same as yours except with mutatations. Eve is considered the most beautiful woman ever, and I think that Adam was the most intelligent man and probably the strongest, but I don't know if that is right.

But did "Original Sin" have an effect on their DNA?