Young Earth - Old Earth

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I know that there are Christian scientists, but to be true to God and the scriptures, they must not be holding to things like Theistic Evolution and such as "scientific facts" just assume to be the truth!

Yeah, theistic evolution just isn’t my cup of tea. God has created and shaped so much just to provide the planet we inhabit.

Worldview certainly affects how “scientific facts” are presented, especially in the highly theoretical realms of cosmology, (a)biogenesis, evolutionary biology, and even quantum mechanics. But this does not mean there are no valid discoveries being made. We should focus on and effectively challenge the invalid philosophical statements.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeah, theistic evolution just isn’t my cup of tea. God has created and shaped so much just to provide the planet we inhabit.

Worldview certainly affects how “scientific facts” are presented, especially in the highly theoretical realms of cosmology, (a)biogenesis, evolutionary biology, and even quantum mechanics. But this does not mean there are no valid discoveries being made. We should focus on and effectively challenge the invalid philosophical statements.

I read somewhere that the NASA scientists were shocked when we landed on the Moon, as they had built the Landing bug with those big bowls on the end of the legs, as thought that moon dust would be like 30 ft thick, but was only a few inches thick! That was due to billions of years of dust pile up were expecting!

 

[SCBPastor]

Well, actually, scientists have appeared to have pushed light beyond 186 K/MPS in a special chamber filled with cesium vapor. & highly pressurized. Once the light had left the chamber, it resumed its normal speed. There's nothing known outside this special environment that appears to speed up light, and the exact mnature of this apparent speedup is not known. While the laser pulse those scientists used appeared to have left that chamber before it had completely entered it, The scientists explained the phenomenom occurred because the cesium atoms seemed to "trade energy" with the leading edge of the laser pulse. However, the light exiting the chamber was not=quite identical to the original laser pulse, & was less-intense.. (And obviously, many other physicists dispute the Princeton peoples' findings.)

One reason a physical object cannot go fast as light is, the faster something goes, the more its atoms & molecules are pressed together, so once it reaches its limit of shrinkage & compression, it can't go any faster. The scale of this effect is too gradual to affect our present space ships.

But in a vacuum, light travels at the same speed constantly.

And GR reminds us that speed is relative to the observer. If I'm standing besire a road & a car with its wondows up goes by me at 100 MPH, & there's a fly buzzing about inside the car, that fly will appear to be flying at 100 MPH, which a fly simply can't do in the open. If someone in the car opens a window, he will seem to be hit by a 100 MPH wind. If the driver of the car has laid on the horn, the pitch of its sound will go up as it approaches, & quickly go lower soon as it passes me. (Doppler effect.) However, as the car approaches, the sound waves do not go faster thab C. 1100 feet/second, sound's speed thru air near sea level. nor is it traveling at less than that speed as it passes. The sound's waves are compressed from my perspective as it approacher, & spread out after it passes. HOWEVER, THE SOUND'S ACTUAL SPPED REMAINS CONSTANT. Same for light, but the Doppler effect for light is observed by us only if its source is moving at very high speed.(Astronomers have noticed a "red shift" in light from objects moving away from us very rapidly.) BUT THE LIGHT IS STILL MOVING AT THE SAME SPEED.

God has caused/allowed us to make these discoveries for a reason, and these discoveries favor an old earth. As for the blue stars, this simply shows more stars are forming. There's an enormous amount of free hydrogen in "space", & when some force such as the gravity of an existing star acts upon some of it to bring it together, a star is born. Over millions of years, stars burn out or explode, & from their remnants, new stars are formed, in a way, same as life on earth is formed from the remains of past life.

And we must remember, GOD made all the laws of physics, & they CANNIOT be broken or changed by us. Six protons together is an atom of carbon with all the properties of carbon anywhere we can go. Any more or any less protons, & it's an atom of something else. This "law" is inviolable.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I am not Dave but you did address "everyone else" so this is my .02 cents:
True our past formed some of the underlying basics of even spiritual understanding. However "How you got there, that is, to God’s word, affects how you understand it. Think about it" I did and it came to me that each of us was led to God's word and salvation by the Holy Spirit who gifts to each of us wisdom and understanding as we enter into the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

For example:

Most people read the Bible in their native language, and in English on this board. Some might have studied the Greek and Hebrew of the Bible well enough to read it that way. But does anyone speak "Bible Greek" and "Bible Hebrew" (and Aramaic) natively?

Did the Holy Spirit miraculously enable you to communicate with God in that way so that you don't need your native language anymore? Does your native culture and time span and match those of the Bible writers and characters, so that you need no help from any man whatsoever?

 

[SCBPastor]

Well, actually, scientists have appeared to have pushed light beyond 186 K/MPS in a special chamber filled with cesium vapor. & highly pressurized. Once the light had left the chamber, it resumed its normal speed. There's nothing known outside this special environment that appears to speed up light, and the exact mnature of this apparent speedup is not known. While the laser pulse those scientists used appeared to have left that chamber before it had completely entered it, The scientists explained the phenomenom occurred because the cesium atoms seemed to "trade energy" with the leading edge of the laser pulse. However, the light exiting the chamber was not=quite identical to the original laser pulse, & was less-intense.. (And obviously, many other physicists dispute the Princeton peoples' findings.)

One reason a physical object cannot go fast as light is, the faster something goes, the more its atoms & molecules are pressed together, so once it reaches its limit of shrinkage & compression, it can't go any faster. The scale of this effect is too gradual to affect our present space ships.

But in a vacuum, light travels at the same speed constantly.

And GR reminds us that speed is relative to the observer. If I'm standing besire a road & a car with its wondows up goes by me at 100 MPH, & there's a fly buzzing about inside the car, that fly will appear to be flying at 100 MPH, which a fly simply can't do in the open. If someone in the car opens a window, he will seem to be hit by a 100 MPH wind. If the driver of the car has laid on the horn, the pitch of its sound will go up as it approaches, & quickly go lower soon as it passes me. (Doppler effect.) However, as the car approaches, the sound waves do not go faster thab C. 1100 feet/second, sound's speed thru air near sea level. nor is it traveling at less than that speed as it passes. The sound's waves are compressed from my perspective as it approacher, & spread out after it passes. HOWEVER, THE SOUND'S ACTUAL SPPED REMAINS CONSTANT. Same for light, but the Doppler effect for light is observed by us only if its source is moving at very high speed.(Astronomers have noticed a "red shift" in light from objects moving away from us very rapidly.) BUT THE LIGHT IS STILL MOVING AT THE SAME SPEED.

God has caused/allowed us to make these discoveries for a reason, and these discoveries favor an old earth. As for the blue stars, this simply shows more stars are forming. There's an enormous amount of free hydrogen in "space", & when some force such as the gravity of an existing star acts upon some of it to bring it together, a star is born. Over millions of years, stars burn out or explode, & from their remnants, new stars are formed, in a way, same as life on earth is formed from the remains of past life.

And we must remember, GOD made all the laws of physics, & they CANNIOT be broken or changed by us. Six protons together is an atom of carbon with all the properties of carbon anywhere we can go. Any more or any less protons, & it's an atom of something else. This "law" is inviolable.

The missing information is that the Doppler Effect is referring to the appearance of differences in speed. That is only part of the equation. It has already been proven that time is not really constant, at all. It changes, depending on where it is observed. A clock ticks at a different rate, depending on its altitude, for example.
But again, we run into other issues, too, when we try to use Uniformitarianism. Not only do we assume, incorrectly, that light travels at a constant speed, but we also assume that every process in the universe is the same, today, as it was in the past. Yet even the "Big Bang" scientists and their allies claim that there was a moment of rapid expansion, right after the "bang." Then they say everything slowed down to its present rate (more or less).
If we are allowed to include such rapid expansion in the 6 day Creation model, we don't need to try to fit long ages into what the Bible says to explain light from distant stars reaching the Earth. It would have been there from the first moments after they were created.

There is another really big problem with making the 6 days into 6 long ages. That would mean that the order of the Creation, as recorded in the Bible, has a massive error in it, because the light was created days before the sun, moon and stars. If there is an error there, how can anything else recorded in the Bible really be trusted?

 

[HankD]

For example:

Most people read the Bible in their native language, and in English on this board. Some might have studied the Greek and Hebrew of the Bible well enough to read it that way. But does anyone speak "Bible Greek" and "Bible Hebrew" (and Aramaic) natively?

Did the Holy Spirit miraculously enable you to communicate with God in that way so that you don't need your native language anymore? Does your native culture and time span and match those of the Bible writers and characters, so that you need no help from any man whatsoever?

I have The Holy Spirit, Almighty God who is able above and beyond all persons, culture and circumstance and if I "need" a man the Spirit will lead me to the man of His choosing.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I have The Holy Spirit, Almighty God who is able above and beyond all persons, culture and circumstance and if I "need" a man the Spirit will lead me to the man of His choosing.

…or vice versa, that is, or God will lead that man to you, in some way. The truth is that he has done so in so many ways, down through the ages. Our God is awesome.

It is undeniable fact that God has used and does use other people, many of them, to work in all of our lives to bring us to him and closer to him. I see no reason to resist this truth.

It is a major way God works, and we see that throughout the Bible. He doesn’t need us or them of course--God can do things however he wants--he just includes us and them, because God is just that good. I’m thankful to God for all of those whom he has used to do so much to make His Word available to me, accessible to me.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Scientific Creationism should be willing to discuss anything since Evolution has been rendered impossible by DNA. Deep time has so many scientific problems. For example, for the last almost 15 billion years they have been unable to explain the origin of the moon.

Regardless of what you mean by Evolution, DNA does effectively rule out abiogenesis. To believe that biological coding arose spontaneously anywhere in a purposeless universe is to embrace magic without a magician. I’m gonna have to go with God on this one. I think even the militant atheist spokesman Anthony Flew became a theist because of this.

 

[Aaron]

...because everyone should understand that the earth really does rotate on its axis and revolve around the sun, even if you can move from any frame of reference to another mathematically.

You're not getting it. They are saying it can't be known, scientifically, if the earth really moves. That's their point. There is no truth value to either model, because both can be justified. Not just mathematically. Really.

Internationally renown Astrophysicist George F. R. Ellis explains: "People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations….For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations….You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that."

Big Bang Theory​

 

[JohnDBaptiste]

A favorite movie of mine is Interstellar. It dabbled in the dilation of time. The late Dr. Chuck Missler did a series on this. What is to us 6 or 7 thousand years projected out to however large the universe actually is can be billions of years at the same time. In Interstellar, the first planet (Miller's planet) not only cost them 7 Earth years an hour, but they arrived several Earth years after the previous astronaut crash landed there... but once there it was only moments after she crashed.

Time and gravity are linked in peculiar ways.

Time passes slower at lower altitudes....

My point is, don't get your hopes up about how long it took the Dog Star to form and attach it to your faith in the God who created it all as if it could some how explain that there is no God...

There are other ways to address this proof scientifically (like the first and second laws of thermodynamics proving that nothing should exist yet here we are). Max entropy means nothing in physics is eternal and Conservation means from nothing nothing comes... so without God who transcends physics nothing would exist.

I can't prove it, but the fact that time dilates and is depended upon gravity, and that we are prisoners of the perpetual now... tells me that it all happened all at once. That galaxies billions of light years away began at the same moment we did here at the same distances they are today (or that they were at 7 k years ago) with visible light radiating here from that same point in time of creation.

Scientists will poo poo this, but these same scientists poo poo the decay of c. (which is proven fact) that the speed of light is slowing down and at a rate that (7k years ago) could have been infinite (or as Trekkers say Warp 10).

 

[robycop3]

You have already brought up this issue. You are trying to force Scripture to say what it does not say.

Genesis 6:19 (KJV) And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every [sort] shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep [them] alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

Genesis 6:20 (KJV) Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every [sort] shall come unto thee, to keep [them] alive.

Genesis 7:14 (KJV) They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Dr. Marcus Ross is the assistant professor of geology and assistant director for the Center for Creation Studies at Liberty University. He holds a master’s degree in paleontology and a PhD in geosciences from the University of Rhode Island. He wrote this a few years ago:

So far, the current estimate of living and extinct vertebrate families is about 950. While we will continue to evaluate these families to see if they should be split up or combined with other families for our final estimate of the “kinds,” 950 families is a good approximation. Given that most animals were brought onto the Ark by twos, while “clean” birds and mammals were brought by sevens, this means that Noah cared for approximately two thousand land-dwelling vertebrate animals.

The Ark Encounter team has just begun publishing the final estimate of Ark “kinds” in peer-reviewed creationist literature as a series of technical papers. The first paper, by Jean Lightner, was published in November of 2012.9 Each paper will discuss the methods, the resulting numbers of “kinds,” and descriptions of each. Combined, these works will help the Ark Encounter artists and planners faithfully represent these creatures in the full-scale replica of Noah’s Ark. Some no doubt will be familiar, but others will be unlike any animals you’ve ever seen! The amazing variety of God’s initial work at creation far exceeds the greatly limited variety we see among surviving species today.

The fossil record has expanded our imaginations about the wonderful possibilities of God’s creation. By His grace and by His leading, the Ark Encounter team hopes, once again, to give a loud witness to the Creator’s amazing wisdom, His judgment of sin during the Flood, and His provision of salvation. Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the Creator of the universe, is the One who brought the animals to Noah to be saved. Later He died on the Cross for sins, so all who would come to Him would be saved for eternity.

No Kind Left Behind

You're right, to a point. No kind of LIVING animal was left behind. But again, you YEs have the prob of over 99% of all species that are known to have existed, to now be extinct. Some, such as the dodo & passenger pigeon, became extinct recently, largely thru the working of man. But most were never seen alive by any man. They lived in prehistoric times.

Another prob for YEs is that, in fossil beds, very few current species are found That's cuz God hadn't then created them. Sorry, YEs; you're sticking your finger in the dike against a FLOOD of OE evidence.

 

[robycop3]

Genesis 1:1-2 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

God created the earth but it was a globe of water. Then He called forth the land. That was all about 6,000 years ago and it was the point of view of Christianity until about 200 years ago. Darwin has been discredited and Big Bang has more troubles than the law allows. Where did the moon come from?

Yes, it was a globe of water after God ended the previous "age" & prepared to make the current arrangement. And the land was under that water til God called it forth.

The moon was most likely a free-floating object that got close enough to earth to be captured by its gravity, by God's will and workings.. But we don't know for sure.

 

[robycop3]

A favorite movie of mine is Interstellar. It dabbled in the dilation of time. The late Dr. Chuck Missler did a series on this. What is to us 6 or 7 thousand years projected out to however large the universe actually is can be billions of years at the same time. In Interstellar, the first planet (Miller's planet) not only cost them 7 Earth years an hour, but they arrived several Earth years after the previous astronaut crash landed there... but once there it was only moments after she crashed.

Time and gravity are linked in peculiar ways.

Time passes slower at lower altitudes....

My point is, don't get your hopes up about how long it took the Dog Star to form and attach it to your faith in the God who created it all as if it could some how explain that there is no God...

There are other ways to address this proof scientifically (like the first and second laws of thermodynamics proving that nothing should exist yet here we are). Max entropy means nothing in physics is eternal and Conservation means from nothing nothing comes... so without God who transcends physics nothing would exist.

I can't prove it, but the fact that time dilates and is depended upon gravity, and that we are prisoners of the perpetual now... tells me that it all happened all at once. That galaxies billions of light years away began at the same moment we did here at the same distances they are today (or that they were at 7 k years ago) with visible light radiating here from that same point in time of creation.

Scientists will poo poo this, but these same scientists poo poo the decay of c. (which is proven fact) that the speed of light is slowing down and at a rate that (7k years ago) could have been infinite (or as Trekkers say Warp 10).

if the speeda light is indeed growing slower, then it will take the light from extremely-distant objects LONGER to reach us.

 

[robycop3]

The 10 Best Evidences from Science that Confirm a Young Earth
#1 Very Little Sediment on the Seafloor

For Additional Information:

• The Sands of Time: A Biblical Model of Deep Sea-Floor Sedimentation
• The Sands of Time: A Biblical Model of Deep Sea-Floor Sedimentation (pdf)
• “Sea Salt, Erosion, and Sediments” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past1 (pdf)

#2 Bent Rock Layers

For Additional Information:

• Rock Layers Folded, Not Fractured
• “Soft-Sediment Deformation Features” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past2 (pdf)
• “Megasequences of North America” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past3 (pdf)

#3 Soft Tissue in Fossils

For Additional Information:

• Two: Those Not-So-Dry Bones
• More Soft Tissue in “Old” Fossils

#4 Faint Sun Paradox

For Additional Information:

• The Young Faint Sun Paradox and the Age of the Solar System

#5 Rapidly Decaying Magnetic Field

For Additional Information:

• The Earth’s Magnetic Field Is Young
• The Earth’s Magnetic Field and the Age of the Earth
• “The Earth’s Magnetic Field” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past4 (pdf)

#6 Helium in Radioactive Rocks

For Additional Information:

• Helium Diffusion Rates Support Accelerated Nuclear Decay
• Young Helium Diffusion Age of Zircons Supports Accelerated Nuclear Decay
• The Age of the Earth’s Atmosphere Estimated by its Helium Content
• “Helium in Rocks and in the Atmosphere” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past5 (pdf)

#7 Carbon-14 in Fossils, Coal, and Diamonds

For Additional Information:

• Carbon-14 in Fossils and Diamonds
• Carbon-14 Evidence for a Recent Global Flood and a Young Earth
• Measurable 14C in Fossilized Organic Materials: Confirming the Young Earth Creation-Flood Model
• “The Pitfalls in the Radioactive Dating Methods—The Radiocarbon Dating Method” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past6 (pdf)
• “Carbon-14 Dating” from Thousands . . . not Billions7 (pdf)

#8 Short-Lived Comets

For Additional Information:

• Comets and the Age of the Solar System
• Kuiper Belt Objects: Solution to Short-Period Comets?
• More Problems for the ‘Oort Comet Cloud’

#9 Very Little Salt in the Sea

For Additional Information:

• The Sea’s Missing Salt: A Dilemma for Evolutionists
  “Sea Salt, Erosion, and Sediments” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past8 (pdf)

#10 DNA in “Ancient” Bacteria

For Additional Information:

• Bacterial Life in Ancient Salt

Hello, Kelso! Gladta meetcha!

Much of the YE's stuff is imagination, opinion, & guesswork. They simply CANNOT account for such things as the time it takes light & other rays from distant objects to reach us, the geological evidence in earth itself, the lack of historical mention of most of the animal species that have ever lived on earth, etc. etc. YEs are trying to wish their theory into reality by shoehorning opinion in among FACT.

 

[robycop3]

You're not getting it. They are saying it can't be known, scientifically, if the earth really moves. That's their point. There is no truth value to either model, because both can be justified. Not just mathematically. Really.

Internationally renown Astrophysicist George F. R. Ellis explains: "People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations….For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations….You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that."

Big Bang Theory​

I believe we have more-than-adequate PROOF for the motions of the earth, moon, planets, galaxy, etc. & for the speeda light & other rays & waves, the distances between the planets & from the sun, etc. And remember, there are a few well-educated & eminent scientists in every branch of it who live in an imaginary world.

Right now, it takes light/radio about 13 min. 48 seconds to reach mars, or from Mars to earth. That's known from communicating with the InSight lander. (This time varies from 4 min. to 24 min. depending upon the nearness of earth & Mars to each other.) There's simply no denying that FACT.

There's NOT some big conspiracy going on to make that all up. There's simply not that much cooperation between the scientists of the various nations to agree on such a coup. So, I tend to dismiss willy-nilly theories to the category of "falt-earth", having seen the curvature of earth from an airplane & watched ships sail over and from the horizon. I watched the various moon landings & heard the delays between the radio messages back & forth from the moon.

Yes, all those conspiracy theories are as phony as doctrines of faith/worship invented by man.

 

[robycop3]

About the Gap Theory: in my opinion, it’s fence sitting. But here’s an interesting article about it.
Why the Gap Theory Won't Work

In his zeal, Dr. Morris does NOT take into account the FACT that over 99% of all species known to have ever lived on earth are now extinct. But Scripture says Noah took at least one pair of EVERY KIND of land creature into the ark.

Learned as he is, Dr. Morris must still add a blort of imagination, opinion, & guesswork to his theories. He needs to look at the EVIDENCE with an UNBIASED eye, if possible. If he did, he'd likely back up 17 yards & punt away the YE theory.

 

[church mouse guy]

Yes, it was a globe of water after God ended the previous "age" & prepared to make the current arrangement. And the land was under that water til God called it forth.

The moon was most likely a free-floating object that got close enough to earth to be captured by its gravity, by God's will and workings.. But we don't know for sure.

That theory of the moon is outdated since lunar samples were returned to earth. Also, we now know that the moon has water in its rocks.

 

[church mouse guy]

In his zeal, Dr. Morris does NOT take into account the FACT that over 99% of all species known to have ever lived on earth are now extinct. But Scripture says Noah took at least one pair of EVERY KIND of land creature into the ark.

Learned as he is, Dr. Morris must still add a blort of imagination, opinion, & guesswork to his theories. He needs to look at the EVIDENCE with an UNBIASED eye, if possible. If he did, he'd likely back up 17 yards & punt away the YE theory.

It does take long for a species to emerge or to go extinct. It is just a question of genetics. After the Genesis Flood some kinds were not able to adapt and the 700 years of Ice Age destroyed others. For example, some kinds of cats may be extinct but we still have many other species of cats. Wouldn't you agree that earth is teeming with life?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 7:15 PM