Young Earth - Old Earth

[Deacon]

"Scientific Creationism" seeks to establish the truth of the Bible above man's so-called "science", as being trustworthy, as I see it.
To me, "casually dismissing" what those who deny the existence of God come up with ( in favor of a careful study of Scripture, and then overlaying what God reveals onto the universe ), is a wiser approach.

In addition, and I don't mean this as an insult, but do you realize that, from my perspective, you appear to support the findings of secular scientists in favor of the Bible?
Not that you do, but that to me, you appear to?

If I haven't stated it before,
Man's theories about the universe around us are still just that....man's theories.
Where is genuine truth found?

" For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." ( John 1:17 )

" Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." ( John 14:6 )

" Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." ( John 17:17 )


To me, it's far wiser to believe what God says first, than to put any stock in what men say apart from it ( Romans 3:4, Psalms 116:11, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Romans 3:10-18 ).

Such a long post to respond to.

1. Scientific Creationism is also “Man’s theories about the universe around us...”, it is “man’s theories” constructed around a biblically nieve interpretation of scripture.

a. It was also constructed by fallible men.
b. It twists and (mis)interprets biblical passages to fit its theories.
c. It twists and (mid)interprets scientific principles to fit its theories.
d. It manipulates the Christian community into believing it is the only ‘righteous, biblical’ alternative and denigrates other biblically acceptable alternatives.​

2. The physical universe was created by God.

a. There are two ways God has communicated to man. In his creation and in his written word, both need to be interpreted properly!

b. All those who study it contribute to a greater understanding of what God created and assists fulfilling God’s command to fill, subdue and rule over the earth. Discernment is required in the search for truth.

c. The Bible can be misinterpreted...
...just as the study of God’s creation can be misinterpreted.
​

3. In God’s special revelation he has shown us the glory of his Son, heir of all things, creator of the universe... all things were made through him... God did not give us special revelation concerning how he created, nor did he need to - that was a task he gave us to do.

Rob

​

 

[Dave G]

In God’s special revelation he has shown us the glory of his Son, heir of all things, creator of the universe... all things were made through him... God did not give us special revelation concerning how he created, nor did he need to - that was a task he gave us to do.

I agree with the underlined...
As for what I've bolded, would you please show Scripture that states this?

I see nothing in His word where He commands any of His children to look into how He created the universe...He only reveals that He did create it, with some of the details that He wants us to know, and everything was by His word and by His Word ( Jesus Christ, John 1:1-3 ).
To me, and with respect to you personally, I believe the statement in bold is an assumption...

As I see it, His children have been given many tasks, but looking into how He created things ( as fascinating as it may be, and, admittedly, it does fascinate me ) isn't one of them.
I trust Him to tell me, if He deems it important, and if I have "need to know".

I believe His words by faith in Genesis and in other places.
Six literal days ( resting on the seventh ), and I'm convinced, a young earth that most of mankind is being deceived into thinking is a lot older than it really is.
No "Gap Theory", no products or by-products of evolution or time-lapse are involved whatsoever.
I don't need to delve more deeply into it than that.
I have the rest of eternity to ask Him those questions.

For now, He has given me plenty to do...and to me, further research would only take time that I feel would be better spent on His word and in seeking Him.


This is my final reply in this thread...
I've posted all I care to, and I leave the discussion up to those of you who still desire to pursue it.



May God bless each of you greatly.

 

[robycop3]

"Scientific Creationism" seeks to establish the truth of the Bible above man's so-called "science", as being trustworthy, as I see it.
To me, "casually dismissing" what those who deny the existence of God come up with ( in favor of a careful study of Scripture, and then overlaying what God reveals onto the universe ), is a wiser approach.

In addition, and I don't mean this as an insult, but do you realize that, from my perspective, you appear to support the findings of secular scientists in favor of the Bible?
Not that you do, but that to me, you appear to?

If I haven't stated it before,
Man's theories about the universe around us are still just that....man's theories.
Where is genuine truth found?

" For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." ( John 1:17 )

" Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." ( John 14:6 )

" Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." ( John 17:17 )


To me, it's far wiser to believe what God says first, than to put any stock in what men say apart from it ( Romans 3:4, Psalms 116:11, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Romans 3:10-18 ).

With all due respect...

God had the writer of genesis say that His spirit moved over THE FACE OF THE WATERS. That shows earth was there before God made the current surface arrangement. And, as there were no men on earth before he made them in this arrangement, there was no one to write Scripture to or about, so Gos didn't start giving it til there were people to write it, read it, & hear it.

And again, God didn't provide all those clues pointing to a great age for earth & the universe to deceive mankind. He just-as-easily coulda caused no such clues to exist.

As for God's existence, it's easy to show to any atheist. Just ask them how anything came to exist without a Creator. Science cannot make something from nothing, nor reduce anything completely outta existence, so where did quarks come from, if not made by GOD?

 

[robycop3]

...and who told you that?
Men, or God?

Man. It's easy for man to discern. God didn't give us intelligence for nothing.

 

[robycop3]

I don't know.
Men think that they know...but do they?
Really?

" Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil." ( Proverbs 3:5-6 )

"Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise [man] glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty [man] glory in his might, let not the rich [man] glory in his riches:
24 but let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I [am] the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth:
for in these [things] I delight, saith the Lord." ( Jeremiah 9:23-24 )

Ignore what men say, and focus on what your Saviour says.

If man says that the sun is 93 million miles away from the Earth, why do we as believers...believe them?
Why do we as believers give the assertions of unbelievers, any authority in our own minds?

"cred?"

If God says one thing, and men say another, who do we listen to?
If God is silent and men tell us all kinds of "nicely invented details" about the universe around us...do we consider that they are "nicely invented", or do we instead trust the Lord?

I speak to myself here as well as to anyone reading this.

We should trust Him, not "science"...
By the way, I speak as a former "scientist"...an amateur hobbyist, but a scientist nonetheless.
That doesn't mean that I dismiss all that men think that they know about Creation...it means that I temper it with everything that God tells me in His word, and consider that anything that man may come up with in his observations, most probably is not 100% accurate and trustworthy.

Therefore, I take these things to the Lord, and ask Him to show me, if He thinks it's important.
I hope that you would do the same.



May God bless you abundantly in good gifts, and may you always look to Him for everything...even answers about man's "science".

If you see a road sign that says "Smithville - 14 miles", that sign was made by man. Someone measured from that place to Smithville & found it to be 14 miles. Now, while GOD didn't reveal that intel Himself, He enabled men to discover it.

The distances from earth to the sun or any planet in the solar system is determined by several methods. The simplest is by reflecting radio or radar waves off a planet back to us & measuring the time between transmission and return signal, as these waves travel at the speeda light, which is well-known.

Another is parallax. Hold a thumb directly in fronta yourself at arm's length & look at it first with one eye, then the other. You'll notice a slight change in its apparent position. This method is used with the opposite sides of earth's orbit as the observation points, with observations being made 6 months apart. In the case of planets, mathematical calculations of their orbital movements are made, to predict their position at a given time. And the distance to the sun was determined by accurate radar-reflection from Venus at various times, especially when it was transitting across the sun as seen from earth, & when it was just going behind the sun and just emerging from behind it. (Mercury is barely half Venus' size, & much-harder to observe while transitting or going behind the sun. And all three planets are on slightly-different orbital planes from each other, so they don't regularly appear to transit to us.)

And, of course, man has been on the moon, & we have a lander on Mars right now, broadcasting radio signals to us, so their respective distances from us are well-known.

God has enabled man to make these discoveries for His own reasons. He coulda made it impossible for us to measure the speeda light & radio waves, impossible to travel off the planet, etc.

No, He didn't reveal the intel to us directly, but He caused/enabled mankind to find it.

 

[robycop3]

How, Roby?

Did someone get out a tape measure and walk it all the way out?
Did someone bounce R.A.D.A.R. ( RAdio Direction And Range-finding ) off it like they ( supposedly ) did the moon?
No, to me it's an estimate, and not even a very good one, at that.

I'd rather trust the Lord...and whether or not He tells me, any answers I get from men are automatically suspect.
I suggest that if you're looking for answers to the way God created the world and universe around us, then look to his word, and take anything men ( especially unbelievers ) say, with a very large grain of salt.



This is my final post in this thread.
I wish you well.

Well, GOD placed all the evidence here for us to see and learn from. remember, he coulda just-as-easily NOT placed any such evidence here.

Sorry to see you back out. Hope you choose to start using ALL the intel God has placed at your disposal, and I wish YOU well, also!

 

[robycop3]

Oh, brother. When there is a mutation, the DNA loses information. Therefore, the original life form is made less. That is what Evolutionists don't want to talk about molecular biology. Darwin speculated that the single cell was simple, but with the discovery of RNA and DNA we now know that the cell is as complicated as can be.

There were once alligators 50 feet long. Their remains are almost identical to today's gators, except for their size. The first horses were no larger than Lassie, & had a toe on each side of each hoof. However, were they still here, & were it physically possible, they could mate with a modern horse and produce more horses. Same with many other species of animal or insect. Their size and abilities changed, but not their species. No lizards evolved into birds, etc.

But still, over 99% of all species that ever lived on earth are now extinct. Scripture makes it plain that Noah took at least one male & female pair of EVERY animal, bird, or crawling thing aboard the ark. Mosta those now extinct were extinct before the flood, so there were no specimens for him to take aboard.

 

[robycop3]

Dave, you sound as if you are either ignoring or denouncing as unbelievers all believers who are scientists. Are you completely unaware of the scientific revolution that began around the time of the Reformation? Modern science was ushered in by those firmly believing in God and Christ. They studied science to discover the laws of nature precisely because they believed in the Lawgiver that created nature, in other words, because they read and believed the Bible.

The real dispute is not over science, but worldview. Believing scientists see God deeply involved in his creation from the very beginning. Others try to come up with theories to oust God, and explanations to deny him, but their efforts lead to more and more unreal scenarios.

You have stated that you would not believe unless you actually saw something for yourself. Do you realize who you sound like? I’m not saying you have to believe every new discovery. But you needn’t be so broadly dismissive. The way you present it, if you were to witness something, no one should believe you. But perhaps that is what you are saying, since you too are a man.

Sir Isaac Newton was a devout Christian. In fact, his mathematical calculations arose from his attempts to discover God's laws of physics & nature.

 

[robycop3]

I think that it is the old earthers who dodge debates.

That's caused by YEs ignoring plain, empirical evidence right under their noses.

 

[church mouse guy]

There were once alligators 50 feet long. Their remains are almost identical to today's gators, except for their size. The first horses were no larger than Lassie, & had a toe on each side of each hoof. However, were they still here, & were it physically possible, they could mate with a modern horse and produce more horses. Same with many other species of animal or insect. Their size and abilities changed, but not their species. No lizards evolved into birds, etc.

But still, over 99% of all species that ever lived on earth are now extinct. Scripture makes it plain that Noah took at least one male & female pair of EVERY animal, bird, or crawling thing aboard the ark. Mosta those now extinct were extinct before the flood, so there were no specimens for him to take aboard.

You have already brought up this issue. You are trying to force Scripture to say what it does not say.

Genesis 6:19 (KJV) And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every [sort] shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep [them] alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

Genesis 6:20 (KJV) Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every [sort] shall come unto thee, to keep [them] alive.

Genesis 7:14 (KJV) They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Dr. Marcus Ross is the assistant professor of geology and assistant director for the Center for Creation Studies at Liberty University. He holds a master’s degree in paleontology and a PhD in geosciences from the University of Rhode Island. He wrote this a few years ago:

So far, the current estimate of living and extinct vertebrate families is about 950. While we will continue to evaluate these families to see if they should be split up or combined with other families for our final estimate of the “kinds,” 950 families is a good approximation. Given that most animals were brought onto the Ark by twos, while “clean” birds and mammals were brought by sevens, this means that Noah cared for approximately two thousand land-dwelling vertebrate animals.

The Ark Encounter team has just begun publishing the final estimate of Ark “kinds” in peer-reviewed creationist literature as a series of technical papers. The first paper, by Jean Lightner, was published in November of 2012.9 Each paper will discuss the methods, the resulting numbers of “kinds,” and descriptions of each. Combined, these works will help the Ark Encounter artists and planners faithfully represent these creatures in the full-scale replica of Noah’s Ark. Some no doubt will be familiar, but others will be unlike any animals you’ve ever seen! The amazing variety of God’s initial work at creation far exceeds the greatly limited variety we see among surviving species today.

The fossil record has expanded our imaginations about the wonderful possibilities of God’s creation. By His grace and by His leading, the Ark Encounter team hopes, once again, to give a loud witness to the Creator’s amazing wisdom, His judgment of sin during the Flood, and His provision of salvation. Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the Creator of the universe, is the One who brought the animals to Noah to be saved. Later He died on the Cross for sins, so all who would come to Him would be saved for eternity.

No Kind Left Behind

 

[church mouse guy]

With all due respect...

God had the writer of genesis say that His spirit moved over THE FACE OF THE WATERS. That shows earth was there before God made the current surface arrangement. And, as there were no men on earth before he made them in this arrangement, there was no one to write Scripture to or about, so Gos didn't start giving it til there were people to write it, read it, & hear it.

And again, God didn't provide all those clues pointing to a great age for earth & the universe to deceive mankind. He just-as-easily coulda caused no such clues to exist.

As for God's existence, it's easy to show to any atheist. Just ask them how anything came to exist without a Creator. Science cannot make something from nothing, nor reduce anything completely outta existence, so where did quarks come from, if not made by GOD?

Genesis 1:1-2 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

God created the earth but it was a globe of water. Then He called forth the land. That was all about 6,000 years ago and it was the point of view of Christianity until about 200 years ago. Darwin has been discredited and Big Bang has more troubles than the law allows. Where did the moon come from?

 

[Aaron]

With all due respect...

God had the writer of genesis...

You mean Moses?

...say that His spirit moved over THE FACE OF THE WATERS. That shows earth was there before God made the current surface arrangement.

LOL. So the earth had form, despite God's revelation to the contrary.

God revealed to Moses here that the heavens and earth were a confused mass that He called the Deep. God presents to us the Deep and says, "This is the heavens and the earth on Day One." In the same manner I can hold out to you a lump of coal and say, "Here are diamonds and pencils."

And, as there were no men on earth before he made them in this arrangement, there was no one to write Scripture to or about, so Gos didn't start giving it til there were people to write it, read it, & hear it.

When men think their imaginations are the revelation of God, this kind of absurdity is the result.

And again, God didn't provide all those clues pointing to a great age for earth & the universe to deceive mankind. He just-as-easily coulda caused no such clues to exist.

Some more vain imagination postulated as revelation.

 

[Aaron]

In summary, there really is no question about what is plainly set forth in Genesis 1. It's not a matter of what it says, it's a matter of what and who one believes. And this thread was started by a man who believes the imaginations of man (and who is especially in love with his own imagination) more than he believes the revelation of God.

He hasn't measured the speed of light nor the distances of stars and galaxies. Every "fact" he claims he knows is merely something he was told by someone else, and he stubbornly clings to his cherished conclusions even when presented with statements to the contrary by the very ones who created and developed the cosmology by which he is wresting Genesis.

But I've read books too, and I've read many by believers who ARE geologists, who ARE biologists, who ARE paleontologists and physicists and astronomers, and who HAVE have a hands-on knowledge every bit as full as that of Evolution's apostles, and they say you aren't being told the whole story when people cite things like the speed of light, and the "certainties" of Relativity, and the dating of rocks and fossils and other clues to God's "real" revelation of an OE in nature.

But they aren't believed. And neither is the superstitious and low mentality of Moses.

Science isn't the problem. The problem is one's heart.

 

[Kelso]

Is the earth only some 6K years old, or is it some 4.5 billion years old? What about the "gap theory"? May we have a "peaceful" discussion about it, free of ad-hominem & "heretic" accusations by either side?

About the Gap Theory: in my opinion, it’s fence sitting. But here’s an interesting article about it.
Why the Gap Theory Won't Work

Is the earth only some 6K years old, or is it some 4.5 billion years old? What about the "gap theory"? May we have a "peaceful" discussion about it, free of ad-hominem & "heretic" accusations by either side?

I'll open this: I'm an "old-earther", based upon the many empirical proofs God has placed at our disposal & allowed or even caused us to discover, such as the speeda light & the fact that many stars or galaxies are so far away that it takes their light millions of years to reach us. (While we can slow light down, we cannot speed it up more than its usual travel speed of over 186K miles per second. Electricity & most rays of energy other than light move at this same speed; none faster.)

And Scripture says God worked on an ALREADY-EXISTING earth!
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was[a]formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
a - or"waste & empty"

So, we see God re-modeled an already-existing earth!

There is much more empirical evidence indicating a great age for the earth & the universe. I only gave two of them to open the discussion.

 

[Kelso]

The 10 Best Evidences from Science that Confirm a Young Earth
#1 Very Little Sediment on the Seafloor

For Additional Information:

• The Sands of Time: A Biblical Model of Deep Sea-Floor Sedimentation
• The Sands of Time: A Biblical Model of Deep Sea-Floor Sedimentation (pdf)
• “Sea Salt, Erosion, and Sediments” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past1 (pdf)

#2 Bent Rock Layers

For Additional Information:

• Rock Layers Folded, Not Fractured
• “Soft-Sediment Deformation Features” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past2 (pdf)
• “Megasequences of North America” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past3 (pdf)

#3 Soft Tissue in Fossils

For Additional Information:

• Two: Those Not-So-Dry Bones
• More Soft Tissue in “Old” Fossils

#4 Faint Sun Paradox

For Additional Information:

• The Young Faint Sun Paradox and the Age of the Solar System

#5 Rapidly Decaying Magnetic Field

For Additional Information:

• The Earth’s Magnetic Field Is Young
• The Earth’s Magnetic Field and the Age of the Earth
• “The Earth’s Magnetic Field” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past4 (pdf)

#6 Helium in Radioactive Rocks

For Additional Information:

• Helium Diffusion Rates Support Accelerated Nuclear Decay
• Young Helium Diffusion Age of Zircons Supports Accelerated Nuclear Decay
• The Age of the Earth’s Atmosphere Estimated by its Helium Content
• “Helium in Rocks and in the Atmosphere” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past5 (pdf)

#7 Carbon-14 in Fossils, Coal, and Diamonds

For Additional Information:

• Carbon-14 in Fossils and Diamonds
• Carbon-14 Evidence for a Recent Global Flood and a Young Earth
• Measurable 14C in Fossilized Organic Materials: Confirming the Young Earth Creation-Flood Model
• “The Pitfalls in the Radioactive Dating Methods—The Radiocarbon Dating Method” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past6 (pdf)
• “Carbon-14 Dating” from Thousands . . . not Billions7 (pdf)

#8 Short-Lived Comets

For Additional Information:

• Comets and the Age of the Solar System
• Kuiper Belt Objects: Solution to Short-Period Comets?
• More Problems for the ‘Oort Comet Cloud’

#9 Very Little Salt in the Sea

For Additional Information:

• The Sea’s Missing Salt: A Dilemma for Evolutionists
  “Sea Salt, Erosion, and Sediments” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past8 (pdf)

#10 DNA in “Ancient” Bacteria

For Additional Information:

• Bacterial Life in Ancient Salt

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I'm not asking people to believe me, and I think that is where our foundational disagreement exists.
I'm asking the people on this forum to believe God first, and men a distant, if even relevant, secondary.

I'm only a man,
But I'm a man who believes the words of my Saviour, and I do not trust mankind to be truthful about anything, unless their truths line up with God's truths.

Dave, we agree on trusting God first. Practically all of us do. The foundational disagreement lies elsewhere. To get to the point of “trusting God first,” we all relied on man. Think about it.

A lot happened before I ever got to God’s word. I don’t just read the Bible with no knowledge of anything else. If that were so, I would not be able to understand a syllable of it. It would just be marks on a page or sounds in the air.

And the same goes for you and everyone else. How you got there, that is, to God’s word, affects how you understand it. Think about it.

 

[Yeshua1]

Really nice work posted here, as if you were an Apostle of Dr Henry Morris Himself! I trust that you have His study Bible?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 7:15 PM

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Einstein and Hawking aren't talking about assuming the earth at rest holding the sun in orbit with its gravity. They're talking about the earth or sun at rest in the center of the mass of the universe, because any point can be assumed to be the center according to Relativity, and all other bodies carried around it by the mass and centrifugal forces of a rotating universe.

They say this view is perfectly justifiable, but it's rejected because it's not the preferred cosmology.

OK, well I’m glad that’s finally clear, because everyone should understand that the earth really does rotate on its axis and revolve around the sun, even if you can move from any frame of reference to another mathematically. (I think the Catholic Church claimed some victory in the centricity argument, since the entire solar system moves within the galaxy, and our galaxy within the universe.)

It’s perfectly fine to think the universe extends approximately the same amount in all directions from our solar system, though it hardly seems necessary, and unlikely provable.

Our real uniqueness lies in God’s creating us in his image, and otherwise attending to us. As far as we know, we are the only such planet in the universe, and even ours could not possibly be without God.

 

[HankD]

Dave, we agree on trusting God first. Practically all of us do. The foundational disagreement lies elsewhere. To get to the point of “trusting God first,” we all relied on man. Think about it.

A lot happened before I ever got to God’s word. I don’t just read the Bible with no knowledge of anything else. If that were so, I would not be able to understand a syllable of it. It would just be marks on a page or sounds in the air.

And the same goes for you and everyone else. How you got there, that is, to God’s word, affects how you understand it. Think about it.

I am not Dave but you did address "everyone else" so this is my .02 cents:

True our past formed some of the underlying basics of even spiritual understanding. However "How you got there, that is, to God’s word, affects how you understand it. Think about it" I did and it came to me that each of us was led to God's word and salvation by the Holy Spirit who gifts to each of us wisdom and understanding as we enter into the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.