Jesus accepted freely the sin guilt of the lost in Adam who were to get redeemed by His death for their stead, so God the father indeed forsook Him while on that Cross as he suffered the wrath of God in judgment against sin!
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How is it that Christ's death is "for our sins"?
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
God saw jesus in the same way he would any sinner while jesus was paying for the sins of His own people!
Sorry.....I keep picturing you putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "he took God's wtath...he took God's wrath..he took God's wrath"....I don't know why you keep on stating your opinion as if we did not know it or as if it were Scripture itself.
If it helps, I think we all know you believe God was wrathful to Christ. You do not have to keep saying it as if it proves something. Most of us also know this is not stated in Scripture itself. Repeating yourself will not fool anyone into believing it true.
Really, so then there is no wrath remaining for any sinner?
That isn't the statement of Scriptures, for there is yet the bowls of God's wrath, and that final wrath in the lake of fire.
So which is it?
Did Christ assume the full wrath, partial wrath or no wrath?
Did Christ assume the full judgement of all sinners, some sinners, or no sinners?
If wrath remains on the unbelieving (as John records) then Christ was surely ineffective in removing of the wrath of God upon the cross.
OR is it another event that resolves the wrath issue. That of God choosing that individual to adopt as a son.
Gup20
Active Member
I think it was simple - Christ exchanged His Righteousness for Abraham’s sin in a 1:1 exchange and suffered the same wrath as any given sinner would - though he never sinned ... that punishment was death (death is separation from God). But since he died having never sinned it meant his righteousness was eternal & could never be changed to unrighteousness.
Christs righteousness having gone to Abraham, God promises that Abraham’s spiritual descendants would inherit that righteousness. By this inheritance, Christ’s righteousness is multiplied to the many.
But since righteousness now exists in the world, it means Adam’s sweeping, corporate judgement for sin is no longer sufficiently just. Adam’s judgement (universal death) has to be repealed in lieu of individual judgements. All will be resurrected (sinners & saints alike) in order to face individual judgement.
When judged individually some will have the free gift of Christ’s righteousness... not because they earned it by works, but because of kinship with Abraham. Those with the same faith in the gospel of Christ as Abraham, are Abraham’s descendants & heirs according to the promise. Not because they deserve it, but because God is motivated to honor his promise. He wants as many to be saved as possible, so he made the gospel simple & qualification for kinship is mere belief in the gospel.
God commands us to make a choice between life or death. He sets this distinct binary choice before us and says it’s not too difficult a choice for us (but here is s hint - choose life), and it’s not a choice he will make for us in heaven. This is the choice; Have faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ & qualify as an heir of the free gift of Christ’s righteousness and eternal life, or reject the gospel & choose death.
Once we believe, we are credited with Christ’s righteousness and we are then given the Holy Spirit as a seal of that credited righteousness as a pledge of the full inheritance to come at the resurrection. This is circumcision of the heart (just as circumcision of the flesh cane after he believed & after he was credited with righteousness in Abraham’s case).
Since we obtain this credited righteousness through the covenant of faith which is a covenant that was ratified 430 years before the law of Moses was given (and once ratified, a covenant cannot have conditions added to it) we know that our inheritance of righteousness is by faith alone and is wholly apart from the works of the law of Moses. The only way to lose our inheritance is if we no longer qualify as an heir, and the way we qualify is that we have faith... so really all we have to do to remain qualified is to have faith that endures. Therefore our works may act as a “putting to proof” that our faith is genuine.... not that works replaces faith as the qualifier of kinship, but rather that works demonstrates the authenticity of our faith (since faith is the only thing that matters, it must truly be a genuine faith).
The wrath to come will be God’s judgements upon billions of people & a cleansing of all sin & corruption in the earth. But Christ will return as a conquering King to rule the earth & there will be peace & justice again in the earth.
Christs righteousness having gone to Abraham, God promises that Abraham’s spiritual descendants would inherit that righteousness. By this inheritance, Christ’s righteousness is multiplied to the many.
But since righteousness now exists in the world, it means Adam’s sweeping, corporate judgement for sin is no longer sufficiently just. Adam’s judgement (universal death) has to be repealed in lieu of individual judgements. All will be resurrected (sinners & saints alike) in order to face individual judgement.
When judged individually some will have the free gift of Christ’s righteousness... not because they earned it by works, but because of kinship with Abraham. Those with the same faith in the gospel of Christ as Abraham, are Abraham’s descendants & heirs according to the promise. Not because they deserve it, but because God is motivated to honor his promise. He wants as many to be saved as possible, so he made the gospel simple & qualification for kinship is mere belief in the gospel.
God commands us to make a choice between life or death. He sets this distinct binary choice before us and says it’s not too difficult a choice for us (but here is s hint - choose life), and it’s not a choice he will make for us in heaven. This is the choice; Have faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ & qualify as an heir of the free gift of Christ’s righteousness and eternal life, or reject the gospel & choose death.
Once we believe, we are credited with Christ’s righteousness and we are then given the Holy Spirit as a seal of that credited righteousness as a pledge of the full inheritance to come at the resurrection. This is circumcision of the heart (just as circumcision of the flesh cane after he believed & after he was credited with righteousness in Abraham’s case).
Since we obtain this credited righteousness through the covenant of faith which is a covenant that was ratified 430 years before the law of Moses was given (and once ratified, a covenant cannot have conditions added to it) we know that our inheritance of righteousness is by faith alone and is wholly apart from the works of the law of Moses. The only way to lose our inheritance is if we no longer qualify as an heir, and the way we qualify is that we have faith... so really all we have to do to remain qualified is to have faith that endures. Therefore our works may act as a “putting to proof” that our faith is genuine.... not that works replaces faith as the qualifier of kinship, but rather that works demonstrates the authenticity of our faith (since faith is the only thing that matters, it must truly be a genuine faith).
The wrath to come will be God’s judgements upon billions of people & a cleansing of all sin & corruption in the earth. But Christ will return as a conquering King to rule the earth & there will be peace & justice again in the earth.
Jesus died for the sale of the Elect, and not for all lost sinners, as God did not intended for all sinners sins to be paid and atoned for, but just His own elect in Christ, so yes, all of their sins are paid for, and there is now no wrath remaining upon them!
Gup20
Active Member
1 Corinthians 15:21-22 (NASB) 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 5:18-19 (NASB) 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Because of Christ ALL people will be resurrected from Adam’s corporate judgement in order to face individual judgements. Therefore Christ’s work affects all... yet “the elect” are a group of chosen people who will have Christ’s righteousness to cover their sin in the individual judgements. God does not choose who will be in this group, but rather has chosen the group as a whole - the whole of the spiritual offspring of Abraham are God’s chosen elect. We choose for ourselves whether or not to join the chosen family.
All will indeed be resurrected, but the death of Jesus only atoned for the ones God chose to get saved, His elect in Christ!