Of Freedom of the Will

I believe the moment we come to believe we are saved, There are many different ideas of how this happens.Faith an trust is believing. We come to believe by hearing the gospel. It stands to reason if we never hear the gospel we cannot be saved.

For myself I heard the gospel from the time I could speak, until I surrendered. I believed that Christ was real long before I committed myself to Him. Was I saved before I committed myself? Or was I saved when I committed myself to Him?. The truth is;
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

It doesn't say we have to tithe, it doesn't say we have to serve, It doesn't say we have to do anything else. Just believe and it's a done deal. We don't have to work for it and we don't have work to keep it's a free gift.

.Biblical proof for our choosing Christ;
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Why would the Lord tell them to choose?
Because Real Love requires the liberty to do so.

There are many who are not saved and know the truth and refuse to believe the truth. They are rejecting the Lord Jesus just as did most of the Jews. Salvation is just to simple for them to believe.
MB

 

Could that be paraphrased as?

Whosoever is not born again shall not enter the kingdom of God.

I say this because I do not think Mark 10 is speaking of doing something like a child but being a child.

 

Interesting to note in regards to choosing and eating, after the fall in which Adam had the free will to disobey God or not which demonstrated the creation of man with free will/human volition (sense, reason and intellect with a purpose), we see in scripture that we are still required to choose, use human volition to take action:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I often say that in the fall man gained the attribute of knowledge of good and evil and nowhere does the scripture say or imply that he lost the ability to choose post-fall as if he were redesigned to not have free will/volition. As Gen 3:22 shows that after the fall man had a condition upon him that he must take an action as per God's plan.

 

Never said there was.

 

Sure , go ahead.

 

Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

Personally, I have no trouble looking at God's word and seeing that mankind has volition, has freedom of choice, has self-determination, has independent thought, has many things that out-right show that he, as a creature, is imbued with life as a living soul.

However, I also see in many places the absolute necessity of needing a changed nature ( "heart", set of desires, motivation towards God ) if He is to have a true relationship with any of us.
Salvation is not just from Hell, which we all deserve...it's TO an eternal relationship with Him and His Son.

At issue here are several matters, and I will limit my Scriptural responses to only those that I see affecting ( biasing ) man's will.
In other words, the Bible is explicit with respect to what is in an unbeliever's heart of hearts.
As I see it, these are objective statements from God's perspective, that show the believer what we are like outside of the new birth and the power of the Holy Spirit:

Genesis 6:5.

Psalms 10:2-11.
Psalms 12:2.
Psalms 14:1-3.
Psalms 28:3-5.
Psalms 36:1-4.
Psalms 37:2.

Psalms 52:1-4.
Psalms 53:1-3.
Psalms 58:1-5.
Psalms 73:3-12.
Psalms 94:3-8.
Psalms 140:1-3.

Romans 1:18-32.
Romans 2:1-5.
Romans 3:5-18.

Ephesians 2:1-4.
Ephesians 4:17-19.

Colossians 1:21.
1 Thessalonians 2:3-6.

The concept I see developed from Scripture, is that man's will is not "free and unbiased".
In the technical sense, man's will is "fettered", or bound to his nature.
Christ came to set His sheep free from this ( John 8:31-41 ).
Believers will be free from both their old natures ( at least inwardly, please see Romans 7:15-25, Galatians 5:17 ), and their old wills.

What a person desires, deep down, will always come out at some point.
Always.
Love of sin results in both inward ( Matthew 5:28 ) and outward sin ( Matthew 15:17-20, Mark 7:20-23 )...and until that sin "nature" is changed, God cannot trust man to approach Him either willingly, or honestly in reconciliation.

Therefore, because of the love of sin ( which leads to resentment towards God for commanding him to repent ), man's inward desire is away from God, not towards Him.
His will is biased against Him.
Man is not a "free moral agent" in any sense of the word.

Until the nature is changed, what is guiding the will cannot change.
Like a ship with a rudder, the nature guides the will, and the will guides a person's actions.

Read the Proverbs, read Ecclesiastes, read the prophets.


To get a comprehensive view of one's old nature, it really is important, in my estimation, to see everything that God says that man is outside of being born again...wicked ( from God's perspective ), continually.

 

This thread amounts to a Calvinist/Determinist proselytization through trying to formulate a strawman argument that free will = freedom of the will = one has the ability to save oneself. Not even do staunch Libertarian Free Willers make such a claim or have such a belief that Human Volition amounts to self-salvation rather than the freedom to believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior and that the work is all His.

The “prerequisites” spoken of in this thread are merely a veiled restating and defense of the Calvinist’ positions of Total Depravity and Unconditional Election which is closely followed by an attempt to formulate a theory of Compatibility between Determinism and Free Will/Human Volition…but even a child can understand the logical mutual exclusiveness of these two actions along with consequences to the Gospel not being a genuine offer and “hope” to all through such disparaging teachings…

This is the reason I suggested from the onset that the Op'er be upfront about the subject and place it in the proper forum. Of course the typical lack of transparency by Calvinist is well understood in that they do not reveal their belief that most are deterministically unable to respond to call of God when they present the Gospel, which would clearly be less than a genuine offer of salvation for all.

 

So God put an angel with a flaming sword to guard against access to the Tree of Life because He knew no one would attempt to enter the garden.

Yet God told Cain he should rule over his sin. Conquer it.

Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

 

Yes, this is exactly what it is. It's also a false dilemma because a limited number of options are given to choose from, as if they are the only ones available.

 

Gentlemen,
With respect, this forum is "Baptist Theology and Bible Study".

Historically, "Baptists" have run the length from "Calvinist" to "Arminian" in their theology....Particular, Reformed, Sovereign Grace, Primitive, Missionary, "Hardshell", "Old Line", Regular, General, Independent Fundamental, Fundamental, Independent, Free Will and so forth.

So, what's the problem?
Do you believe that "Baptist Theology and Bible Study" should be limited to only those who hold to "F.A.C.T.S"?
Only those who hold to "Traditionalism"?

How is that fair to all, then?
Why not both "TULIP" and "FACTS"?



After all, equal is equal.
We're all "Baptists".


May God, in His grace, bless you as He has blessed me.

 

No. Benjamin is rightly pointing out the obvious that the appropriate forum for this sort of discussion is Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Not only that but adherents to both sides of this discussion are not limited to Baptists, another reason it should be moved to the other forum.

 

Jdg 4:7 KJV - And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand.
Jdg 4:13 KJV - And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, [even] nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that [were] with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon.

Would Sisera say he had freewill when he commanded his army go "unto the river Kishon"? Would he say he was following God's leading in his life?

I suspect he would claim he was exercising his best military strategy of his own freewill!

(Sorry, no scripture to validate my view. Purely speculation.)

 

I suppose so..

But to me, you and Benjamin in this thread ( so far ) seem to have a real problem with the Baptists who hold to "TULIP".
Again, what's the problem?

Is it your desire to relegate the Baptists who hold to TULIP, to one area of discussion, while the rest of the Baptists are free to discuss anything else, anywhere else?
Fair is fair, in my opinion.

How about asking the mods for a ruling then?

 

The categories on this board were formed for a reason and have purpose - which is not to overrun the board with soteriology and proselytization of such. Please don't come here trying to rewrite the rules to suit your agendas.

 

Discussing Scripture has an agenda?
I can understand how you would see it that way...
But still,
Please don't relegate Baptists who believe in TULIP to one forum, while the rest get free run of the place to discuss anything they like.

Again, perhaps we should get a ruling from the mods.
I for one, would gladly abide by that.

I think it's only fair and equal...don't you?