EPH1:1-14....what is says/ what it does not say!

In another recent thread this passage came up in Discussion:
Ephesians 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

A poster Jon Schaff objected and offered this;

So rather than derail that thread let's take a look.

 

Jon Schaff posted;

Okay this seems to be the way to go let's do it

Yes...It looks like that was exactly what Paul said

Yes Exactly. That is exactly what Paul wrote. He is writing to"the saints"

vs.1 to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
The faithful saints IN CHRIST JESUS

PAUL declared it to be a fact'...here.

This text is not addressing baptism as to if it is water baptism, or Spirit baptism, or a baptism of suffering at all. Stick with the text as it is written and you will see it clearly.
Your ideas on baptism may or may not be true. No one is saying that they are as you assume, but that is not what this context is speaking about at all.

While Jesus is the Elect servant that Isaiah speaks about He was not being spoken of as the Elect servant here.
The election here is not of the SERVANT OF THE LORD., but rather the saints, the faithful In Christ.

If that be true or not is NOT taught here. You are distorting the passage by dragging that idea into it.

No worry there JON....you did not insult him at all. However that being said,
reading the passage as slow as a turtle would not import the ideas you seek to shoehorn into these verses

This passage says nothing about your idea whatsoever. It does say that those elected saints who were elected In Christ before the world was have been made accepted in the beloved vs 6
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Notice how your ideas are not found here, but just the opposite.

The text and thought say otherwise, Paul also mentions this in 2tim1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Notice it is addressed to US, and it says when the grace was given to us ....before the world began.

 

I notice you do not address the text at all Martyf.
I do not feel the need to introduce a novelty here, but rather just stick simply by what is written. The fact is that another viewpoint was already introduced in an attempt to suggest that David Kent had it wrong.
If you can support that idea go for it.
I do not think you can.Here is your chance to offer correction.
The failed musings of Leighton Flowers do not get it done.lol

 

Nevertheless the passage indicates a time reference,before creation not after.
Why object philosophically when predestination if easily and freely declared as a great blessing by Paul.
As far as this supposed multitude of whosoever verses, we know for a fact the one in jn3:16 is actually everyone believing.

 

The time tunnel idea with a wrong view of biblical foreknowledge does not stand and has no biblical support. It is foreknowledge of persons not events or what a person will do in the future. 4x the word WHOM He did foreknow is used in Roman's 8.
It is not prescience but rather foreknowledge of persons.

 

God as creator defines time for us. He Himself enters into time even though He is supra temporal.
Gal4: 4 speaks of Jesus coming in the fullness of time to redeem those elected persons.
Jesus spoke of time several times in the gospels

So if God defines time for us why would we seek to sneak out from under what He has defined for us in the text?

 

Well I interacted with what you posted quite honestly. I welcome your response. I stayed with the text.it looked like you were bringing ideas in from the outside. My views are open to scriptural correction from the text.

 

Hello MB
God has chosen people and nations for a purpose.
Here the saints, the faithful are being told why they are called with a holy calling before the world was.
You posted uncle Leightons storytime about the coach....I did not see that in the text. He wants to put the cart before the horse but the text does not allow it so he offers a story about two coaches that enables Leighton to explain his idea of what He thinks God should have said.

 

We are predestined to be confirmed to the image of the Son Pastor Bob.
We can agree on that. You state that your idea that the bible teaches free will causes you to deny God's election unto salvation.
Obviously if the philosophical idea of a free will is false...you would be letting this false idea hinder your study of the teaching.
This idea of man accepting God first is directly opposed to the whole teaching that man be a rebellious sinner who does not seek God .
That idea is not In this text anywhere.
Those who oppose Calvinism will agree that we are predestined to holiness, adoption , glorification, etc.. They balk at salvation being God's choice however.
To do that this text must be avoided, read backwards from verse13 down to verse 3...or all these other tricks, rather than just submitting to what God says.

 

Mb, read verses 1-5....are you suggesting that the us is not the saints Paul is writing to? It is not written to the faithful saints at Ephesus, but some unnamed companion? That only Paul and the unnamed companion were chosen? Is that really what you want to say you are reading here?
Has anyone else in Church history seen that idea here?