EPH1:1-14....what is says/ what it does not say!

[Iconoclast]

In another recent thread this passage came up in Discussion:
Ephesians 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

A poster Jon Schaff objected and offered this;

Yes, let us read the Bible. So, you were "in Him" before the foundations of the World? Because Paul says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the World. How on earth could we have been in Him before the foundation of the World when we are "Baptized into Christ" upon conversion? Quick answer: Because Paul is highlighting the Fact that God Chose Christ to bring About His Heavenly Blessings. God counseled within Himself that Christ would be the One in Whom all Nations would be blessed. I do not want to insult your intelligence Brother David, but read it slowly. It was God's plan before the foundation of the World that God would Send Christ to bless those who are in Him, this was done by His own choosing. We were not "In Christ" before the Foundation of the World. So, How could He "Choose us in Him" ?

So rather than derail that thread let's take a look.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jon Schaff posted;

Yes, let us read the Bible.

Okay this seems to be the way to go let's do it

So, you were "in Him" before the foundations of the World?

Yes...It looks like that was exactly what Paul said

Because Paul says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the World.

Yes Exactly. That is exactly what Paul wrote. He is writing to"the saints"

vs.1 to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
The faithful saints IN CHRIST JESUS

How on earth could we have been in Him before the foundation of the World

PAUL declared it to be a fact'...here.

when we are "Baptized into Christ" upon conversion?

This text is not addressing baptism as to if it is water baptism, or Spirit baptism, or a baptism of suffering at all. Stick with the text as it is written and you will see it clearly.
Your ideas on baptism may or may not be true. No one is saying that they are as you assume, but that is not what this context is speaking about at all.

Quick answer: Because Paul is highlighting the Fact that God Chose Christ to bring About His Heavenly Blessings.

While Jesus is the Elect servant that Isaiah speaks about He was not being spoken of as the Elect servant here.
The election here is not of the SERVANT OF THE LORD., but rather the saints, the faithful In Christ.

God counseled within Himself that Christ would be the One in Whom all Nations would be blessed.

If that be true or not is NOT taught here. You are distorting the passage by dragging that idea into it.

I do not want to insult your intelligence Brother David, but read it slowly

No worry there JON....you did not insult him at all. However that being said,
reading the passage as slow as a turtle would not import the ideas you seek to shoehorn into these verses

. It was God's plan before the foundation of the World that God would Send Christ to bless those who are in Him,

This passage says nothing about your idea whatsoever. It does say that those elected saints who were elected In Christ before the world was have been made accepted in the beloved vs 6
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Notice how your ideas are not found here, but just the opposite.

this was done by His own choosing. We were not "In Christ" before the Foundation of the World. So, How could He "Choose us in Him" ?

The text and thought say otherwise, Paul also mentions this in 2tim1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Notice it is addressed to US, and it says when the grace was given to us ....before the world began.

 

[MartyF]

Jon Schaff posted;


Okay this seems to be the way to go let's do it



Yes...It looks like that was exactly what Paul said


Yes Exactly. That is exactly what Paul wrote. He is writing to"the saints"

vs.1 to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
The faithful saints IN CHRIST JESUS


PAUL declared it to be a fact'...here.


This text is not addressing baptism as to if it is water baptism, or Spirit baptism, or a baptism of suffering at all. Stick with the text as it is written and you will see it clearly.
Your ideas on baptism may or may not be true. No one is saying that they are as you assume, but that is not what this context is speaking about at all.



While Jesus is the Elect servant that Isaiah speaks about He was not being spoken of as the Elect servant here.
The election here is not of the SERVANT OF THE LORD., but rather the saints, the faithful In Christ.


If that be true or not is NOT taught here. You are distorting the passage by dragging that idea into it.



No worry there JON....you did not insult him at all. However that being said,
reading the passage as slow as a turtle would not import the ideas you seek to shoehorn into these verses


This passage says nothing about your idea whatsoever. It does say that those elected saints who were elected In Christ before the world was have been made accepted in the beloved vs 6
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Notice how your ideas are not found here, but just the opposite.



The text and thought say otherwise, Paul also mentions this in 2tim1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Notice it is addressed to US, and it says when the grace was given to us ....before the world began.

This reminds me a beating a dead horse. Most people stop after their anger has killed the horse. But others are simply not satiated. They keep beating the horse after it is dead. Wait long enough and the horse is pulverized and indistinguishable from the ground. Unfortunately, some are still not satiated. They get a shovel and start digging until they can find a bloody patch of earth. And then they start clubbing the bloody earth.

This refutation and many many others like it are online. You aren’t covering any new ground which hasn’t been discussed and rediscussed ad naseum. At least read the very public, free, and easily found viewpoints against your opinion and see if there is anything new you can bring to the table. Sometimes, you just have to realize the other side won’t agree with you and you don’t have powerful enough evidence to convince them. You can move on or search for some better evidence.

. . . or, I guess you can start clubbing the earth . . .

 

[HankD]

There is a reason why this issue (C vs. A) has endured for centuries (maybe millennia) - because of the essential difference between these two views.

The reason is that no one knows for sure whether God in His foreknowledge looked down the corridors of time and saw those who would believe on His Son and appoint them to eternal life or chose them for another reason unknown to us as well.

SECRET: Arminians also believe in unconditional election.

WHY?: God didn't have to choose anyone for any reason.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Below is perhaps the clearest commentary on this passage that I have read in a while. With the multitude of "whosoever will" passages in the Word of God, when one comes across a "seeming paradox," that passage much be interpreted in light of other scriptures. When comparing the whole of the Word of God, it is sometimes beneficial to determine what the text is not saying before we can understand what it is saying. The Word of God never contradicts itself.

It is my opinion that there are far more passages that would refute the teaching of predestination (regarding salvation) than there are that would "seemingly" support it.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (KJV)

There is a mystery here that centers in the fact that we are finite and God is infinite. We are creatures of time; God inhabits eternity. We express our mode of being in three tenses of time—I was, I am, I will be. God expresses His mode of being in the eternal present—I am, I am, I am. Thus Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I was"; Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). He was claiming eternity of being and coexistence with the Father, and His enemies considered His statement blasphemous.


We are hindered in experience and understanding by the limited nature of our being. As finite creatures we live in the here and now and can deal with only one thing at a time. Life is presented to us, so to speak, in tiny little packages. We live it moment by moment. The future lies before us, but we cannot experience it until it touches us in a fleeting moment of the present before it recedes instantly into the past. We can anticipate the future and recall the past, but we live in the flickering moment we call the present. In God's mind, however, the past, present, and future are swallowed up in the all-embracing present.


Thus when we read that we were chosen in Him "before the foundation of the world," we must realize that the Holy Spirit has stated the issue from our perspective. Since God lives in the present tense, there is to Him no time difference between the moment He chose me and the moment I chose Him. The perception of time difference is ours alone. From the standpoint of God's eternal present tense, both acts are simultaneous.

 

[Iconoclast]

This reminds me a beating a dead horse. Most people stop after their anger has killed the horse. But others are simply not satiated. They keep beating the horse after it is dead. Wait long enough and the horse is pulverized and indistinguishable from the ground. Unfortunately, some are still not satiated. They get a shovel and start digging until they can find a bloody patch of earth. And then they start clubbing the bloody earth.

This refutation and many many others like it are online. You aren’t covering any new ground which hasn’t been discussed and rediscussed ad naseum. At least read the very public, free, and easily found viewpoints against your opinion and see if there is anything new you can bring to the table. Sometimes, you just have to realize the other side won’t agree with you and you don’t have powerful enough evidence to convince them. You can move on or search for some better evidence.

. . . or, I guess you can start clubbing the bloody earth . . .

I notice you do not address the text at all Martyf.
I do not feel the need to introduce a novelty here, but rather just stick simply by what is written. The fact is that another viewpoint was already introduced in an attempt to suggest that David Kent had it wrong.
If you can support that idea go for it.
I do not think you can.Here is your chance to offer correction.
The failed musings of Leighton Flowers do not get it done.lol

 

[Iconoclast]

Below is perhaps the clearest commentary on this passage that I have read in a while. With the multitude of "whosoever will" passages in the Word of God, when one comes across a "seeming paradox," that passage much be interpreted in light of other scriptures. When comparing the whole of the Word of God, it is sometimes beneficial to determine what the text is not saying before we can understand what it is saying. The Word of God never contradicts itself.

It is my opinion that there are far more passages that would refute the teaching of predestination (regarding salvation) than there are that would "seemingly" support it.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (KJV)

There is a mystery here that centers in the fact that we are finite and God is infinite. We are creatures of time; God inhabits eternity. We express our mode of being in three tenses of time—I was, I am, I will be. God expresses His mode of being in the eternal present—I am, I am, I am. Thus Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I was"; Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). He was claiming eternity of being and coexistence with the Father, and His enemies considered His statement blasphemous.


We are hindered in experience and understanding by the limited nature of our being. As finite creatures we live in the here and now and can deal with only one thing at a time. Life is presented to us, so to speak, in tiny little packages. We live it moment by moment. The future lies before us, but we cannot experience it until it touches us in a fleeting moment of the present before it recedes instantly into the past. We can anticipate the future and recall the past, but we live in the flickering moment we call the present. In God's mind, however, the past, present, and future are swallowed up in the all-embracing present.


Thus when we read that we were chosen in Him "before the foundation of the world," we must realize that the Holy Spirit has stated the issue from our perspective. Since God lives in the present tense, there is to Him no time difference between the moment He chose me and the moment I chose Him. The perception of time difference is ours alone. From the standpoint of God's eternal present tense, both acts are simultaneous.

Nevertheless the passage indicates a time reference,before creation not after.
Why object philosophically when predestination if easily and freely declared as a great blessing by Paul.
As far as this supposed multitude of whosoever verses, we know for a fact the one in jn3:16 is actually everyone believing.

 

[Iconoclast]

There is a reason why this issue (C vs. A) has endured for centuries (maybe millennia) - because of the essential difference between these two views.

The reason is that no one knows for sure whether God in His foreknowledge looked down the corridors of time and saw those who would believe on His Son and appoint them to eternal life or chose them for another reason unknown to us as well.

SECRET: Arminians also believe in unconditional election.

WHY?: God didn't have to choose anyone for any reason.

The time tunnel idea with a wrong view of biblical foreknowledge does not stand and has no biblical support. It is foreknowledge of persons not events or what a person will do in the future. 4x the word WHOM He did foreknow is used in Roman's 8.
It is not prescience but rather foreknowledge of persons.

 

[Iconoclast]

Below is perhaps the clearest commentary on this passage that I have read in a while. With the multitude of "whosoever will" passages in the Word of God, when one comes across a "seeming paradox," that passage much be interpreted in light of other scriptures. When comparing the whole of the Word of God, it is sometimes beneficial to determine what the text is not saying before we can understand what it is saying. The Word of God never contradicts itself.

It is my opinion that there are far more passages that would refute the teaching of predestination (regarding salvation) than there are that would "seemingly" support it.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (KJV)

There is a mystery here that centers in the fact that we are finite and God is infinite. We are creatures of time; God inhabits eternity. We express our mode of being in three tenses of time—I was, I am, I will be. God expresses His mode of being in the eternal present—I am, I am, I am. Thus Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I was"; Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). He was claiming eternity of being and coexistence with the Father, and His enemies considered His statement blasphemous.


We are hindered in experience and understanding by the limited nature of our being. As finite creatures we live in the here and now and can deal with only one thing at a time. Life is presented to us, so to speak, in tiny little packages. We live it moment by moment. The future lies before us, but we cannot experience it until it touches us in a fleeting moment of the present before it recedes instantly into the past. We can anticipate the future and recall the past, but we live in the flickering moment we call the present. In God's mind, however, the past, present, and future are swallowed up in the all-embracing present.


Thus when we read that we were chosen in Him "before the foundation of the world," we must realize that the Holy Spirit has stated the issue from our perspective. Since God lives in the present tense, there is to Him no time difference between the moment He chose me and the moment I chose Him. The perception of time difference is ours alone. From the standpoint of God's eternal present tense, both acts are simultaneous.

God as creator defines time for us. He Himself enters into time even though He is supra temporal.
Gal4: 4 speaks of Jesus coming in the fullness of time to redeem those elected persons.
Jesus spoke of time several times in the gospels

So if God defines time for us why would we seek to sneak out from under what He has defined for us in the text?

 

[JonShaff]

@Iconoclast The unfortunate reality concerning these discussions is that we are not honest regarding our intentions. Neither of us (if i'm being honest, will you be?) really have a teachable spirit concerning this issue. We just want to throw our understanding of the text at the other person without really interacting with each other's points. You have a framework in which you see all texts. I have a framework in which i see all texts. Are we willing to check our preunderstandings at the door and, by the Grace of God, look at the text without any biases?

 

[MB]

In another recent thread this passage came up in Discussion:
Ephesians 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
.

I believe God chose certain people for certain purposes Paul was one of those. So were the disciples. So are a lot of missionaries and pastors and teachers. The word "us" should refer to those prresent at that time. The word "us" is not all inclusive.
In verse 13 he includes the audience using the word "Ye".This does not mean we wear not chosen for Salvation.
MB

 

[kyredneck]

Are we willing to check our preunderstandings at the door and, by the Grace of God, look at the text without any biases?

Lol, what if Icon, like me, has already done that and has come to the conclusions he now holds?

 

[JonShaff]

Lol, what if Icon, like me, has already done that and has come to the conclusions he now holds?

Great, demonstrate that by interacting with people's responses instead of "Can't you see this is what the text says..." type responses.

 

[Iconoclast]

@Iconoclast The unfortunate reality concerning these discussions is that we are not honest regarding our intentions. Neither of us (if i'm being honest, will you be?) really have a teachable spirit concerning this issue. We just want to throw our understanding of the text at the other person without really interacting with each other's points. You have a framework in which you see all texts. I have a framework in which i see all texts. Are we willing to check our preunderstandings at the door and, by the Grace of God, look at the text without any biases?

Well I interacted with what you posted quite honestly. I welcome your response. I stayed with the text.it looked like you were bringing ideas in from the outside. My views are open to scriptural correction from the text.

 

[JonShaff]

Well I interacted with what you posted quite honestly. I welcome your response. I stayed with the text.it looked like you were bringing ideas in from the outside. My views are open to scriptural correction from the text.

Brother, then please help me understand how we were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world. If this is predestination/election then you are are saying Christ had a crop of folks "already in Him". How is that possible?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

When comparing the whole of the Word of God, it is sometimes beneficial to determine what the text is not saying before we can understand what it is saying. The Word of God never contradicts itself.

It is clear that I do not believe this passage is teaching that we are predestinated to salvation (as defined by Calvinism); so, I thought it would be good if I shared my opinion as to what I believe this passage is teaching.

Based upon the Bible's position on the free will of man, I can only conclude that this passage is teaching something other than predestination or unconditional election. I believe that we are most certainly predestined, just not for salvation. We (all of God's children) are predestined to holiness. Once we accept God's free gift of salvation, we are predestined, chosen in Him before the foundations of the world, to be holy and blameless as children of God.

Ephesians 2:10 adds that we were predestined, as a child of God, to good works. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (KJV).

II Thessalonians 2:13 clearly tells us that our election to salvation is contingent upon our "belief of the truth." "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" (KJV).

I Peter 1:2 teaches that our election was based on God's foreknowledge. Foreknowledge of what? Foreknowledge of our belief of the truth. "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (KJV).

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe God chose certain people for certain purposes Paul was one of those. So were the disciples. So are a lot of missionaries and pastors and teachers. The word "us" should refer to those prresent at that time. The word "us" is not all inclusive.
In verse 13 he includes the audience using the word "Ye".This does not mean we wear not chosen for Salvation.
MB

Hello MB
God has chosen people and nations for a purpose.
Here the saints, the faithful are being told why they are called with a holy calling before the world was.
You posted uncle Leightons storytime about the coach....I did not see that in the text. He wants to put the cart before the horse but the text does not allow it so he offers a story about two coaches that enables Leighton to explain his idea of what He thinks God should have said.

 

[MB]

Hello MB
God has chosen people and nations for a purpose.
Here the saints, the faithful are being told why they are called with a holy calling before the world was.
You posted uncle Leightons storytime about the coach....I did not see that in the text. He wants to put the cart before the horse but the text does not allow it so he offers a story about two coaches that enables Leighton to explain his idea of what He thinks God should have said.

The word "us" does not refer to all saints , but only those with Paul. He was speaking of himself and those with him at the time.
Who is uncle Leighton?
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

It is clear that I do not believe this passage is teaching that we are predestinated to salvation (as defined by Calvinism); so, I thought it would be good if I shared my opinion as to what I believe this passage is teaching.

Based upon the Bible's position on the free will of man, I can only conclude that this passage is teaching something other than predestination or unconditional election. I believe that we are most certainly predestined, just not for salvation. We (all of God's children) are predestined to holiness. Once we accept God's free gift of salvation, we are predestined, chosen in Him before the foundations of the world, to be holy and blameless as children of God.

Ephesians 2:10 adds that we were predestined, as a child of God, to good works. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (KJV).

II Thessalonians 2:13 clearly tells us that our election to salvation is contingent upon our "belief of the truth." "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" (KJV).

I Peter 1:2 teaches that our election was based on God's foreknowledge. Foreknowledge of what? Foreknowledge of our belief of the truth. "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (KJV).

We are predestined to be confirmed to the image of the Son Pastor Bob.
We can agree on that. You state that your idea that the bible teaches free will causes you to deny God's election unto salvation.
Obviously if the philosophical idea of a free will is false...you would be letting this false idea hinder your study of the teaching.
This idea of man accepting God first is directly opposed to the whole teaching that man be a rebellious sinner who does not seek God .
That idea is not In this text anywhere.
Those who oppose Calvinism will agree that we are predestined to holiness, adoption , glorification, etc.. They balk at salvation being God's choice however.
To do that this text must be avoided, read backwards from verse13 down to verse 3...or all these other tricks, rather than just submitting to what God says.

 

[Iconoclast]

The word "us" does not refer to all saints , but only those with Paul. He was speaking of himself and those with him at the time.
Who is uncle Leighton?
MB

Mb, read verses 1-5....are you suggesting that the us is not the saints Paul is writing to? It is not written to the faithful saints at Ephesus, but some unnamed companion? That only Paul and the unnamed companion were chosen? Is that really what you want to say you are reading here?
Has anyone else in Church history seen that idea here?