Featured Premillennium, Amillennium, Postmillennium

It doesn't say God will Crush us during the Tribulation period--On the Contrary, God will Teach us, guide us, protect us, and bring us into the Glorious Image of His Son. We are learning to Trust Him.

Christ being with us as we go through something that is completely devastating, but knowing that it will be for our good and for His Glory IS love. I do not see it as cosmic abuse, but rather doing what's necessary to reveal His perfect love in Us by being with us in a supernatural way.

Just some thoughts.

 

Those bad things would not be the direct wrath of god though, and the Antichrist doesn't really his true colors until mid point, correct?

 

I'm a bit surprised at this argument coming from you; I'm more accustomed to hearing it from atheists and agnostics: "Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?" Why do you think God allowed His bride in Lyon to be destroyed in such a brutal way in the 2nd Century? What purpose did God have in the appalling sufferings of the Anabaptists? What reason is there for the evil suppression of God's bride in North Korea at this very time?

Usually I answer by showing verses like Luke 21:12-17 or John 16:2-4 or Acts 14:22 to say that if these things didn't happen then the Bible wouldn't be true. But to you I offer Isaiah 45:9-10 and Isaiah 55:8-9. God has His reasons.

I'd like to look at what I suppose is one of your key texts:
Matthew 24:21-22. 'For then there will be great tribulation, such as there has not been since the foundation of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.'
What the text doesn't say is that the elect will be air-lifted out of the tribulation. What it says is that the tribulation will be time-limited for everyone, but for the elect's sake.

 

I'm surprised that you would think my argument is the same as the one from atheists and agnostics. Their argument is about what God allows. Mine is about what God causes.

I'm a dispensationalist. The church age ends at the rapture. Therefore, what you are referring to, "the elect" of the tribulation, are not the church. And I do believe those elect will be protected as the Israelites were from the plagues on the Egyptians. But that's another discussion that I don't have time for right now.

 

No, the Antichrist is revealed right after the Rapture.

 

I agree, except that it won't be "us." I'll not be there.

Pretty good ones.

 

I second this.

I was dispensational my whole life until a few years ago. When I actually found out other views exist. Now after numerous debates, books and the most importantly the Bible, I see the gross error, of that position.

I do enjoy Ladd though as well and Historical Premill, Although I'm more convinced of Amill.

 

Yes, but he does not really start to do his really wicked stuff until mid point time!

 

I went to Ladd position after many tears, as still see the premil position as really solid, but the pre trib position, while still viable, not as sure now!

 

'For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

OK. I just don't see your Dispensationalism in the Bible. I think we've gone about as far as we can. Thanks for your time.
As I've posted here before, anyone who believes in a literal, physical return of Christ is fine with me.

 

I do still see God has a future for national Israel, but that hope is the Second Coming, but until then, there is but One people of God, those Jews/Gentiles saved by Jesus!

 

Define "really wicked stuff."

 

This does not mean evil deeds by atheists. Look in the context at 12:1.

I'm with you there. That's a fundamental of the faith.

 

I'm not familiar with Ladd. Could you elaborate?

 

He was a famous Christian theology author who made popular the concept of the Kingdom was here, but not yet fully here yet, as that awaited the Second Coming of Christ.!
He held to the viewpoint that the church will be protected and kept by God during the great tribulation period...

 

Turning against organized religions, forcing Himself as being the true messiah, setting up worship of Himself!

 

Did Ladd state a position concerning this prophecy: Rev 19:9 KJV - "And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."?

Reference post #86.

 

He also held a very strong opposition to dispensationalism.

 

I would agree with him on that point at least. Thank you.

 

Is the "great tribulation" a prophesied period in the future before Jesus' final return for resurrection & judgment? There are 3 specific references to "great tribulation" as distinct from the general warnings that Christians will suffer tribulation at the hands of the ungodly, & that sinners will suffer tribulation as a judgment from God. Mat. 24:21 Rev. 2:22 & Rev. 7:14

Mat. 24:21 refers to the time of the AD 70 destruction, & takes place before the passing of "this generation" so is a matter of recorded history.

Rev. 2:22 refers to the Thyatira church for allowing the teaching of Jezebel, & for others who fail to hear & heed the warning.

Rev. 7:14 refers to THE great tribulation presumably a specific prophesied tribulation as at the destruction. We need to look at the context.

Rev. 1 in its opening verses makes it clear that the prophecy concerns the immediate readers - "what must soon take place....... because the time is near."He quotes from the Olivet prophecy in v. 7, a "coming" where Jesus quotes Daniel 7 where his "coming" is his ascension to receive the Kingdom. Again taking place before the passing of "this generation."

In his Olivet prophecy Jesus gathers his elect from the four winds (Mat. 24:31) as recorded in Rev. 7:1. The 144,000 are therefore the believing Jews delivered from the great tribulation of Jerusalem before the destruction. They saw the signs & heeded Jesus warnings.

Rev. 7 occurs during the opening of the sixth seal, when John sees the people crying in terror for the rocks to fall on them & hide them from the wrath of the Lamb, as Jesus warns in Luke 23:30, quoting Isaiah 2.

The great tribulation is past; whatever tribulation has occurred down the ages & is occurring is of general character, not specifically prophesied as an "end time" event.

What about Rev. 20? John saw "the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God." Martyrs & other dead believers, in glory. Souls, not a bodily resurrection. See the two resurrection in John 5:24-30

The "millennium" is the present Gospel age.