On Baptism...

[robycop3]

While I am a Baptist, I'm starting this thread here, so non-Baptist brethren may chip in as well...

On a Facebook page, I'm dialoguing with some preterists who also believe one is not saved til one is baptized. When I cited Jesus' saving the thief on the cross who couldn't be baptized, they claimed it was because the Old Covenant was still in effect!(Never mind that Jesus introduced the New Covenant at the "Last Supper"!)

Another example is that of Zacchaeus. When Jesus saved him He did NOT tell Zac to go be baptized; Jesus said, "Today, SALVATION has come to this house!"

I consider Jesus to be the Master of both salvation and baptism. While I believe every new Christian SHOULD be baptized ASAP after salvation, I do NOT believe baptism brings salvation.

Apparently, the Scriptures I quoted to those people didn't sway them. I am wondering what YOUR thoughts are about this subject, & am seeking advice as to what else to tell them.

THANX IN ADVANCE!

 

[HankD]

While I am a Baptist, I'm starting this thread here, so non-Baptist brethren may chip in as well...

On a Facebook page, I'm dialoguing with some preterists who also believe one is not saved til one is baptized. When I cited Jesus' saving the thief on the cross who couldn't be baptized, they claimed it was because the Old Covenant was still in effect!(Never mind that Jesus introduced the New Covenant at the "Last Supper"!)

Another example is that of Zacchaeus. When Jesus saved him He did NOT tell Zac to go be baptized; Jesus said, "Today, SALVATION has come to this house!"

I consider Jesus to be the Master of both salvation and baptism. While I believe every new Christian SHOULD be baptized ASAP after salvation, I do NOT believe baptism brings salvation.

Apparently, the Scriptures I quoted to those people didn't sway them. I am wondering what YOUR thoughts are about this subject, & am seeking advice as to what else to tell them.

THANX IN ADVANCE!

To believe one must be baptized to be saved means one believes there is more power in water than the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Yeshua1]

To believe one must be baptized to be saved means one believes there is more power in water than the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Romans and Galatians are inspired testimonies to the truth that a sinner is justified before holy God on the basis of what Jesus did on that Cross for them, and nothing else can be added to that!

 

[Adonia]

While I am a Baptist, I'm starting this thread here, so non-Baptist brethren may chip in as well...

On a Facebook page, I'm dialoguing with some preterists who also believe one is not saved til one is baptized. When I cited Jesus' saving the thief on the cross who couldn't be baptized, they claimed it was because the Old Covenant was still in effect!(Never mind that Jesus introduced the New Covenant at the "Last Supper"!)

Another example is that of Zacchaeus. When Jesus saved him He did NOT tell Zac to go be baptized; Jesus said, "Today, SALVATION has come to this house!"

I consider Jesus to be the Master of both salvation and baptism. While I believe every new Christian SHOULD be baptized ASAP after salvation, I do NOT believe baptism brings salvation.

Apparently, the Scriptures I quoted to those people didn't sway them. I am wondering what YOUR thoughts are about this subject, & am seeking advice as to what else to tell them.

THANX IN ADVANCE!

1. The thief on the cross did not need to be baptized as the Savior was right there in person telling him he would see paradise. He was therefore in a sense baptized with the Masters words, not water.

2. For the rest of us the Scriptures are pretty clear in that we need to be baptized. Over and over again we are told this about salvation - baptism is a command, a requirement - it couldn't be any clearer.

3. Jesus Himself was baptized, we are to follow in His footsteps.

 

[robycop3]

How about someone for whom baptism is impossible, such as one whose physical condition prohibits immersion, or a prison inmate in a facility where baptism is not performed? (I believe PROPER baptism is by immersion, not sprinkling, etc.)

GOD, of course, knows when baptism is impossible for a given person.

 

[FaithAndWorks]

1. The thief on the cross did not need to be baptized as the Savior was right there in person telling him he would see paradise. He was therefore in a sense baptized with the Masters words, not water.

2. For the rest of us the Scriptures are pretty clear in that we need to be baptized. Over and over again we are told this about salvation - baptism is a command, a requirement - it couldn't be any clearer.

3. Jesus Himself was baptized, we are to follow in His footsteps.

Not one jot or letter will be lost but fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18-20
The Fulfillment of the Law
…18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.…

The thief on the cross was baptized when Christ side was pierced and water and blood gushed out and it began to rain. A great tempest ensued and earthquake and the moon and sun were darkened and the graves gave up their dead. All God's words come back to Him fruitful. We are to teach all His Commands as great and no matter what God provides the water .

God is no liar and what He says shall be fulfilled and should be taught that it must be and will be. Christ baptized many at His death even those in the grave.

 

[Adonia]

The thief on the cross was baptized when Christ side was pierced and water and blood gushed out and it began to rain.

Now that is something that I never had thought of before. Well said!

 

[Adonia]

Another example is that of Zacchaeus. When Jesus saved him He did NOT tell Zac to go be baptized; Jesus said, "Today, SALVATION has come to this house!"

Do we really know the complete story about this event? Maybe afterwards one of the Apostles took him aside and said: "Brother, you and everyone else in your household need to be baptized now and that is the reason I have come to see you".

 

[robycop3]

Do we really know the complete story about this event? Maybe afterwards one of the Apostles took him aside and said: "Brother, you and everyone else in your household need to be baptized now and that is the reason I have come to see you".

We only know what Scripture says. And what Jesus said to Zac is recorded: in Lule 19:
9And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

So, plainly, Jesus saved him before he was baptized, if he ever was.

 

[FaithAndWorks]

God is not the author of confusion. I think the real issue is Protestants want to discredit infant baptism, because they are so sure it is ineffective. Therefore,they sift through scripture to uphold their disdain for Orthodox and Catholic doctrine. As to the verse you quote, of course salvation came to that house because Christ came to that house. That man believed and for sure would then be baptized because it is the Word of the Lord to be.

What is your point?

The Gentiles Receive the Holy Spirit Acts 10:46-48
…46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God. Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.…

The point is these people were adults who believed the good news , CHRIST the WORD. The Holy Spirit came upon them , BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED, FIRST. Then baptism by water was given.

Three Thousand Believe Acts 2:37-39
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”…


What can we deduce from these accounts? That water baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, and too can be applied after the Holy Spirit come upon you or before. So what is all the fighting about? You people gag at gnats and swallow camels.
Point, both approaches are correct. As for infant baptism , this too is acceptable.

If you are Christian parents it only make sense to raise your children in the faith. And since water baptism too, is for the forgiveness of sins and does remove sin , it can be applied to an infant . The point is Christ came to remove sin PERIOD!.
Matthew 19:13-14
13Then the little children were brought to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them; and the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”…
HINDER NOT! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. PERIOD!
A Good Name Proverbs 22:5-6
…5Thorns and snares lie on the path of the perverse; he who guards his soul stays far from them. 6Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.

The point? You say water baptism is not necessary for salvation yet Christ says it must be done, before salvation comes or after salvation and to not OBEY is not an act of obedience. Therefore, if not done you loose your salvation, PERIOD!

So your point? Also, immersion is not the only application acceptable to the Lord and the scripture reveals three methods....yes immersion is one, to pour is two, and sprinkling is three.
Whatever way, it is clear without Spirit and water baptism you can not enter heaven
John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

The word Baptism does not only mean immersion.


Redemption through His Blood Hebrews 9:18-20


.

18That is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19For when Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats,(along with water), scarlet wool, and hyssop, and( sprinkled )the scroll and all the( people), 20saying, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”g

Since Christ' blood is over all those who believe we now use only water

Ezekiel 36:25
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Jesus Washes His Disciples' Feet John 13:4-6
…4So He got up from the supper, laid aside His outer garments, and wrapped a towel around His waist. 5After that, He( poured water into a basin) and began to wash the disciples’ feet and dry them with the towel that was around Him. 6He came to Simon Peter, who asked Him, “Lord, are You going to wash my feet?”…
Isaiah 44:3
“For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:”

All three are acceptable, stop trying to act like you are better than another and simply love the brethren.
No Greater Love John 15:12
…11I have told you these things so that My joy may be in you and your joy may be complete. 12This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.…

 

[robycop3]

My point is, baptism before salvation is merely a bath, and that salvation comes without baptism. (However, I believe every new Christian SHOULD be baptized ASAP if at all possible.)

Now, how about a condemned prisoner who comes to Jesus shortly before execution? He/she cannot be baptized. Are you saying that person can't be saved ?

Again, we have that unmistakable example of Jesus saving the repentant thief on the cross beside Him. No way could that man have been baptized. I even saw the silly explanation that he was baptized when it rained! That was hardly IMMERSION!

I'm seeking varied opinions on this subject, and, while I disagree, Faith& Works, I value your input, so, if you believe I'm wrong, fire away! I'm piecing together some answers to the cats I'm dialoguing with on facebook. (Easy to shut down their preterism! They don't have one quark of **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** supporting their assertions!)

 

[Adonia]

We only know what Scripture says. And what Jesus said to Zac is recorded: in Lule 19:
9And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

So, plainly, Jesus saved him before he was baptized, if he ever was.

Not everything that happened in the life of Jesus Christ and His ministry here on earth was recorded for all posterity. I think my hypothesis is completely valid and could be true.

A big deal is always made about getting baptized every time the concept of salvation is mentioned and then suddenly in this instance it is not required? The fact is plain that you really do not know what did or didn't happen after Jesus said those words as you were not there.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not everything that happened in the life of Jesus Christ and His ministry here on earth was recorded for all posterity. I think my hypothesis is completely valid and could be true.

A big deal is always made about getting baptized every time the concept of salvation is mentioned and then suddenly in this instance it is not required? The fact is plain that you really do not know what did or didn't happen after Jesus said those words as you were not there.

We are justified before God by the basis of the Cross of Christ, and receive salvation thru faith alone in Him!

 

[FaithAndWorks]

My point is, baptism before salvation is merely a bath, and that salvation comes without baptism. (However, I believe every new Christian SHOULD be baptized ASAP if at all possible.)

Now, how about a condemned prisoner who comes to Jesus shortly before execution? He/she cannot be baptized. Are you saying that person can't be saved ?

Again, we have that unmistakable example of Jesus saving the repentant thief on the cross beside Him. No way could that man have been baptized. I even saw the silly explanation that he was baptized when it rained! That was hardly IMMERSION!

I'm seeking varied opinions on this subject, and, while I disagree, Faith& Works, I value your input, so, if you believe I'm wrong, fire away! I'm piecing together some answers to the cats I'm dialoguing with on facebook. (Easy to shut down their preterism! They don't have one quark of **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** supporting their assertions!)

If it is merely taking a bath Three Thousand Believe Acts 2:37-39
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”…

Peter said repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins

And my Lord said:John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

It is NOT merely taking a bath. Do you presume to be above Christ?
Matthew 5:19
19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven
You preach a foreign doctrine not found in the Word. I'll go with Christ.

 

[FaithAndWorks]

The Gentiles Receive the Holy Spirit Acts 10:46-48
…46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God. Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.…

Also this happened as proof to the Jews who did not want the gentiles included. They were Jews for the Jews. God gave them proof of worthiness and acceptance by giving the gift of tongues as proof. Why tongues ? To show that God is the God of all peoples , nations and tongues. So Peter replies "Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? peter was a Jew for the Jews he need a little nudge . But water baptism is a must to enter heaven for both water and Spirit are necessary that does not sound like a mere bath. You scoff at the Lord. My question to you is who are you a man, to answer back to God? NO WHERE in scripture is water baptism taken lightly.
And my Lord said:John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

 

[robycop3]

If it is merely taking a bath Three Thousand Believe Acts 2:37-39
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”…

Peter said repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins

And my Lord said:John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

It is NOT merely taking a bath. Do you presume to be above Christ?
Matthew 5:19
19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven
You preach a foreign doctrine not found in the Word. I'll go with Christ.

I disagree with many of your points.

Baptism before salvation is merely a bath, simple as THAT! Otherwise, a sinner with an unchanged heart could be saved anyway by being baptized.

And being "born of water" refers to natural childbirth & the water in the amniotic sac being released; I. E. "Her water broke; the baby's on the way!"

Again, my point is, while every new Christian SHOULD be baptized ASAP, baptism is simply impossible for some, but we see by Jesus' saving the thief on the cross who couldn't be baptized, that baptism does NOT remit nor wash away sin. The shed blood of Jesus washes away sin.

 

[robycop3]

The Gentiles Receive the Holy Spirit Acts 10:46-48
…46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God. Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.…

Also this happened as proof to the Jews who did not want the gentiles included. They were Jews for the Jews. God gave them proof of worthiness and acceptance by giving the gift of tongues as proof. Why tongues ? To show that God is the God of all peoples , nations and tongues. So Peter replies "Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? peter was a Jew for the Jews he need a little nudge . But water baptism is a must to enter heaven for both water and Spirit are necessary that does not sound like a mere bath. You scoff at the Lord. My question to you is who are you a man, to answer back to God? NO WHERE in scripture is water baptism taken lightly.
And my Lord said:John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

You're simply WRONG.

Salvation comes by repenting of one's sins & coming to JESUS in belief & submission. By YOUR scheme, it's impossible for a death-row inmate to be saved, or for one whose physical limitations prevent him/her from being immersed in water without drowning, to be saved.

Baptism without salvation is merely a bath. Remember, I AM A BAPTIST, & therefore know something about baptism! When I was saved, I was EAGER to be baptized, & the two weex I had to wait seemed like forever.

But baptism is the public expression of one's faith in Jesus as Savior, lord, and God.

 

[FaithAndWorks]

You're simply WRONG.

Salvation comes by repenting of one's sins & coming to JESUS in belief & submission. By YOUR scheme, it's impossible for a death-row inmate to be saved, or for one whose physical limitations prevent him/her from being immersed in water without drowning, to be saved.

Baptism without salvation is merely a bath. Remember, I AM A BAPTIST, & therefore know something about baptism! When I was saved, I was EAGER to be baptized, & the two weex I had to wait seemed like forever.

But baptism is the public expression of one's faith in Jesus as Savior, lord, and God.

Are you calling Christ a liar?

And my Lord said:John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

 

[FaithAndWorks]

I disagree with many of your points.

Baptism before salvation is merely a bath, simple as THAT! Otherwise, a sinner with an unchanged heart could be saved anyway by being baptized.

And being "born of water" refers to natural childbirth & the water in the amniotic sac being released; I. E. "Her water broke; the baby's on the way!"

Again, my point is, while every new Christian SHOULD be baptized ASAP, baptism is simply impossible for some, but we see by Jesus' saving the thief on the cross who couldn't be baptized, that baptism does NOT remit nor wash away sin. The shed blood of Jesus washes away sin.

Are you calling Christ a liar?

And my Lord said:John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

 

[FaithAndWorks]

And my Lord said:John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

"VERY TRULY" emphasis applied, meaning- HE REALLY MEANS IT! Anyone walking around with their doctrine , applying the precepts of man as TRUTH, really needs to check himself at the door. Anyone can disagree and say "YOUR WRONG" all one want's it is not to me but to Him who sends, that the disagreement is with. It would seem with all the head wagging and finger pointing at other denominations , men in the Baptist sect need to be edified. All who cling to the false doctrine that water baptism has nothing to do with salvation and is only a bath, I say go ahead leave it out and I assure you the Spirit will bear witness against you.

BOTH go hand and hand without both you can not enter heaven, so where will you enter?

Matthew 5:19
19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven
You preach a foreign doctrine "Robycop3" not found in the Word. I'll go with Christ.