Salvation Formula

[Van]

I am sorry I failed to present the gospel in a manner you could grasp. Two others thought the effort helped.

In any event the title of the OP presents the equation, and then in the post I described and defined each term of the equation. Why you, and others, moved "good works" from one side of the equation to the other, in spite of my saying they were accomplishments after salvation boggles my mind.

But now that you seem to grasp it, do you see any problem with the presentation, theologically.

 

[MB]

I am sorry I failed to present the gospel in a manner you could grasp. Two others thought the effort helped.

In any event the title of the OP presents the equation, and then in the post I described and defined each term of the equation. Why you, and others, moved "good works" from one side of the equation to the other, in spite of my saying they were accomplishments after salvation boggles my mind.

But now that you seem to grasp it, do you see any problem with the presentation, theologically.

Actually I do not believe all you have written. As I see it you make Salvation far to complicated. Gentiles Can hear and understand Act 28;28
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
MB

 

[Van]

I may be presenting scriptural truths that you deem "too complicated" but there is a scriptural basis for every term in the equation. To leave one or more out would be to present an incomplete gospel, and that would be wrong.

Revealing Grace = hearing and understanding the call through the gospel of Christ, presents the same truth presented in Acts of the Apostles 28:28

 

[37818]

God's forknowledge > His election > His predestination for us > the sanctifying work of His Spirt > the call of the gospel, our changing our mind, our believing its truth, God saving us by His grace [regeneration].

 

[MB]

[

I may be presenting scriptural truths that you deem "too complicated" but there is a scriptural basis for every term in the equation. To leave one or more out would be to present an incomplete gospel, and that would be wrong.

Revealing Grace = hearing and understanding the call through the gospel of Christ, presents the same truth presented in Acts of the Apostles 28:28

Why would hearing and understanding be part of Grace. There is no difference between sinners they all sin and have no restrictions in hearing and understanding. Are you implying that some will not be saved because God didn't die for them. Are you claiming that man cannot respond to the Gospel unless he has the grace to do so?. What exactly do you mean that Grace has anything to do with man's hearing and understanding.
MB

 

[Van]

Why would hearing and understanding be part of Grace. There is no difference between sinners they all sin and have no restrictions in hearing and understanding. Are you implying that some will not be saved because God didn't die for them. Are you claiming that man cannot respond to the Gospel unless he has the grace to do so?. What exactly do you mean that Grace has anything to do with man's hearing and understanding.
MB

Think about aborted babies, did they hear and understand the gospel? Scripture says God "manifests" himself, and that revealing is grace. No one would seek God unless they believed He exists and rewards those who seek him.

No, Christ died for all mankind, the whole world, 1 John 2:2, He became the propitiation or means of salvation from God's wrath, for the whole world.

I am claiming man cannot respond to the gospel unless he/she hears it and understands it. The fall did not disable anyone, but the practice of sin will disable some, the first soil of Matthew 13.

Gods revelation, by what He has made, and through the witness of the inspired scripture, provides the grace of revealing God.

 

[MB]

Think about aborted babies, did they hear and understand the gospel? Scripture says God "manifests" himself, and that revealing is grace. No one would seek God unless they believed He exists and rewards those who seek him.

I think it is evident that men all around the world have sought there maker. Which is why we have so many false gods and false religions. They never received the word but knew from inside of them selves there had to be a God. When they couldn't find Him they gave up and created one for them selves.

No, Christ died for all mankind, the whole world, 1 John 2:2, He became the propitiation or means of salvation from God's wrath, for the whole world.

I am claiming man cannot respond to the gospel unless he/she hears it and understands it. The fall did not disable anyone, but the practice of sin will disable some, the first soil of Matthew 13.

Gods revelation, by what He has made, and through the witness of the inspired scripture, provides the grace of revealing God.

If sin disabled some, then all would be disabled. Not just some. It seems your saying that some men cannot be saved.
The first soil received the seed. He just didn't have a root. I believe each time we hear the gospel regardless of whether or not we are saved, It prepares us to receive more of the seed the next time we hear it. Sort of like cultivating the soil. I myself heard the gospel many times before I realized that it was what I wanted all along. Root is knowledge of the truth. In other words some Bible learning.
When I was a kid our church had contest of memorizing scripture.It was easy for me because my parents made me memorize scripture any way. Once you have the word hidden your heart it works on you.
MB

 

[37818]

I think it is evident that men all around the world have sought there maker. Which is why we have so many false gods and false religions. They never received the word but knew from inside of them selves there had to be a God. When they couldn't find Him they gave up and created one for them selves.

Well, . . .". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ." -- Romans 3:11.

". . . Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. . . ." -- Acts of the Apostles 17:22-23.

 

[MB]

Well, . . .". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ." -- Romans 3:11.

". . . Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. . . ." -- Acts of the Apostles 17:22-23.

We can't say they weren't seeking even though they didn't know who God is so they just said to the unknown God.
MB

 

[37818]

We can't say they weren't seeking even though they didn't know who God is so they just said to the unknown God.
MB

Then Romans 3:11 is false according to you! And the "none" in Romans 3:10 would have to be equally false as well.

 

[Dave G]

Next you seem to be pushing all born anew are predestined to produce good works.

" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 )

 

[Van]

" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 )

I am sure you are implying something, but what could it be? Why not specify if you think the above verse implies born anew believers are predestined to produce "good works."

What does we are His workmanship mean? It means we are a new creation, created for good works.
When did God prepare these "good works" for us to do? Does God's redemption plan include progressive sanctification, as we live out the rest of our physical life after we have been born anew?
What are the good works, be ambassadors for Christ, witness and plant and water? What does the Bible say?

And if anyone wrongly believes our good works are predestined, what happened to those entering heaven as one escaping from a fire?

 

[Danthemailman]

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We most often forget verse 10!

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God works are part of our salvation.

Notice that in the EARTHLY time line continuum GRACE and FAITH come first not the good works - the good works come POST salvation to fulfill our predestiny.

Why? Because we are dead and lost and hopeless without the grace of God. Without grace FIRST there can be no good works.

"walk in them" The NC way of saying - LIVE in them, or - make them your way of life.!

We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works.

 

[MB]

Then Romans 3:11 is false according to you! And the "none" in Romans 3:10 would have to be equally false as well.

Taken the wrong way, not false. Paul quoted what a fool says in his heart. Ps 14 There is nothing that implies that this is the real state of man. It can't be because there were men who sought God. Paul as an example.
in verse 9 it says;
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
We are all fools before Christ because we do not have Christ and this below is what a fool says in his heart
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
There is none righteous of them selves. Yet there were and are some righteous saints because they are made righteous by Christ. The passage is all inclusive all men means everyone.This is what the fool thinks
MB

 

[HankD]

So it seems the biggest problem with "good works" post salvation is as someone said we do not consider them "work" as we love to do them.

Before salvation sin was both our slave master and our delight,
After, the deeds called "labor of love" displaces our lust (or should).

We delight in helping others whatever their spiritual status (unless of course they hate us and want our harm).
We desire the word of God, prayer and the fellowship of the brethren, etc, etc...

 

[Van]

God's forknowledge > His election > His predestination for us > the sanctifying work of His Spirt > the call of the gospel, our changing our mind, our believing its truth, God saving us by His grace [regeneration].

Thanks for your post. Let's delve into it.

God's foreknowledge refers to His redemption plan formulated before creation. No problem.

His election refers before creation to the Word individually and those the Word would redeem corporately. No problem.

His predestination refers to the two things that occur as a consequence of being transferred into Him, (1) the redeemed are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son, and (2) the redeemed are predestined to be adopted (the redemption of our bodies) at His Second Coming. No problem.

In my opinion, the order of your next terms is wrong, so I will present them in the order that I believe is biblical.

The call of the gospel (Revealing grace). No problem

Our changing our mind (repentance) and our believing in Christ (faith). No problem.

Not listed in your sequence God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

The sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit - where God sets us apart individually in Christ, our individual election. No problem

Once transferred into Christ we are made alive together with Christ (regeneration) our new birth. No problem.

After being made firm in Christ, we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as our comforter, guide, and promise of our resurrection in glorified bodies, our adoption.

But after we are positionally sanctified (in Christ spiritually) we undergo "progressive sanctification" where we (1) continue to be conformed to the image of Christ, and (2) engage in "good works" such that we enter heaven "abundantly."

Lastly comes our adoption in our glorified body at Christ's second coming.

 

[Van]

Here is one of the passages that presents progressive sanctification requirements.

Thessalonians 4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Sanctification and Love
4 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to [a]walk and please God (just as you actually do [b]walk), that you excel still more. 2 For you know what commandments we gave you [c]by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from [d]sexual immorality; 4 that each of you know how to [e]possess his own [f]vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in [g]lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but [h]in sanctification. 8 So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

9 Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 for indeed you do practice it toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, to excel still more, 11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you, 12 so that you will [i]behave properly toward outsiders and [j]not be in any need.

Footnotes:

1. 1 Thessalonians 4:1 Or conduct yourselves
2. 1 Thessalonians 4:1 Or conduct yourselves
3. 1 Thessalonians 4:2 Lit through the Lord
4. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 Or fornication
5. 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Or acquire
6. 1 Thessalonians 4:4 I.e. body; or wife
7. 1 Thessalonians 4:5 Lit passion of lust
8. 1 Thessalonians 4:7 I.e. in the state or sphere of
9. 1 Thessalonians 4:12 Lit walk
10. 1 Thessalonians 4:12 Lit have need of nothing

And as a side note, Christians are told to be self reliant, whereas atheists tell us it is ok to be unwilling to work. Christians are told it is better to be free than slave, whereas atheists tell us to become slaves to the state. No wonder the godless left attacks the Bible.

 

[37818]

Taken the wrong way, not false. Paul quoted what a fool says in his heart. Ps 14 There is nothing that implies that this is the real state of man. It can't be because there were men who sought God. Paul as an example.
in verse 9 it says;
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
We are all fools before Christ because we do not have Christ and this below is what a fool says in his heart
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
There is none righteous of them selves. Yet there were and are some righteous saints because they are made righteous by Christ. The passage is all inclusive all men means everyone.This is what the fool thinks
MB

Romans 3:11 goes with Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 goes with Romans 3:10. The Apostle by the Holy Spririt answers Psalms 14:2 or Psalms 53:2 with Romans 3:11. The gospel has to be preached (or read) in order for one to seek or understand the true God (John 17:3). And only by actually knowing the true God and so have eternal life (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20; John 14:6; 1 John 5:12-13; Titus 1:2).

 

[Van]

Most of the fallen can hear and understand the gospel message. The Bible says only a "few" find the path to eternal life. Those of the first soil (Matthew 13) are unable, but some of the rest have their faith credited as righteousness.

Mat 7:14
“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[MB]

Romans 3:11 goes with Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 goes with Romans 3:10. The Apostle by the Holy Spririt answers Psalms 14:2 or Psalms 53:2 with Romans 3:11. The gospel has to be preached (or read) in order for one to seek or understand the true God (John 17:3). And only by actually knowing the true God and so have eternal life (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20; John 14:6; 1 John 5:12-13; Titus 1:2).

It is still the words of a fool. In the Bible a fool is a lost person.
MB