Salvation Formula

[Van]

You are not making sense. Or at least I am not understanding your argument. We have no control over the soil, the hearts of men.
There are at least three main reasons to know why men do not get saved.
1. Having a problem of hearing truth (John 18:37).
2. Not understanding God. Romans 3:11. Their not seeking God is the reason we need to preach the gospel.
3. The gospel not being correctly understood. 2 Corinthians 4:3. Part of this is false versions of the gospel or bad invitations. Where the gift of the gospel is not made understood. The simplicity in Christ is easy.

Well one of us seems to be having a problem. Lets go over the problems given in scripture
1) Soil #1, unable to hear and understand the gospel due to the practice of sin. But these did not start out unable to hear and understand, or fully understand.
2) They are not "of My Sheep" or open to the gospel. Perhaps they have been indoctrinated in a man-made doctrine, or have too much pride to abandon what they once thought to be true.
3) And to go over old ground, Romans 3:11 does not say unable to understand the gospel at any time, but unable to when sinning or with their mind set on fleshly desires.
4) Yes, we can change our mind, turn from a shallow lip service commitment to Christ and go all in. We can turn from treasuring Christ and worldly treasure, to discarding anything at anytime that hinders our devotion to Christ.
5) I think you have it backwards, people seek God only after experiencing "Revealing Grace."
6) As I said before, 2 Cor. 4:3 addresses the condition of soil #1, and not the rest of the unregenerated.

 

[MB]

Please cite the reference(s) you are referring to.

Psa_92:6 A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.
Pro_7:22 He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;
Pro_10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.
Pro_10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
Pro_10:23 It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.
Pro_12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
Pro_14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

Is this enough to prove a fool is a lost person.
MB

 

[MB]

Well one of us seems to be having a problem. Lets go over the problems given in scripture
1) Soil #1, unable to hear and understand the gospel due to the practice of sin. But these did not start out unable to hear and understand, or fully understand.
2) They are not "of My Sheep" or open to the gospel. Perhaps they have been indoctrinated in a man-made doctrine, or have too much pride to abandon what they once thought to be true.
3) And to go over old ground, Romans 3:11 does not say unable to understand the gospel at any time, but unable to when sinning or with their mind set on fleshly desires.
4) Yes, we can change our mind, turn from a shallow lip service commitment to Christ and go all in. We can turn from treasuring Christ and worldly treasure, to discarding anything at anytime that hinders our devotion to Christ.
5) I think you have it backwards, people seek God only after experiencing "Revealing Grace."
6) As I said before, 2 Cor. 4:3 addresses the condition of soil #1, and not the rest of the unregenerated.

What is wrong here is that you offer no scripture to support your theories. Man can seek God. Sin is with us all. So if it is sin that disables us then none of us are saved.
MB

 

[37818]

1) Soil #1, unable to hear and understand the gospel due to the practice of sin. But these did not start out unable to hear and understand, or fully understand.

We have no control over this.

2) They are not "of My Sheep" or open to the gospel. Perhaps they have been indoctrinated in a man-made doctrine, or have too much pride to abandon what they once thought to be true.

This is because those are the ones who have a problem with truth (John 8:47; John 10:27-30; John 18:37).

3) And to go over old ground, Romans 3:11 does not say unable to understand the gospel at any time, but unable to when sinning or with their mind set on fleshly desires.

It says no such thing. Rather that "none" understands or seeks God. Not any one.

 

[Van]

There is no point in continuing MB, once a person starts in with material false statements, communication is impossible.

You say I offer no scriptures: But I discussed specific scriptures in support of my view in posts # 26, 37,39, 47, 50, 52, 54, and 58.

Did I say one sin disables a person? Nope. Yet another strawman of your construction. I said the practice of sin. Commentary Concerning Soil #1, of Matthew 13.

"Some of the seed fell on a path. A path is where many people have walked, and the dirt there is well worn. The ground of a path is harder than the ground on either side of it. The more people walk on a path, the more “packed down” the dirt becomes. The seed that fell on the path could not sink down into the dirt. Before the seed could even take root, some birds came and ate the seed." The practice of sin creates a well worn path, trampled down and barren.

 

[Van]

We have no control over this.

This is because those are the ones who have a problem with truth (John 8:47; John 10:27-30; John 18:37).
It says no such thing. Rather that "none" understands or seeks God. Not any one.

It is pointless to continue. "We have no control" is a mistaken view. Those in this category no longer have control, but before they became "hardened" by the practice of sin they did. And note the word hardened, not hard from conception but hardened during their lifetime.

And I have rebutted "no one" does not say "no one at any time" but rather "no one when they are sinning."

 

[37818]

It is pointless to continue. "We have no control" is a mistaken view. Those in this category no longer have control, but before they became "hardened" by the practice of sin they did. And note the word hardened, not hard from conception but hardened during their lifetime.

And I have rebutted "no one" does not say "no one at any time" but rather "no one when they are sinning."

You are arguing a special pleading for Romans 3:11. I have argued that truth is a reason the gospel needs to be preached to everyone. Whether through reading the NT or another proclaiming its truth in some way. Romans 3:11 leaves no exceptions.

If you were to explain to someone how to know God, what would you explain?

 

[Van]

Yet another strawman (special pleading). Your view conflicts with scripture after scripture. Mine is consistent with all scripture. No one seeks God at any time conflicts with Matthew 23:13. Deal with it, and do not change the subject.

If the Fall caused total spiritual inability, how did they harden their heart by the practice of sin. Deal with it and do not change the subject.

 

[MB]

Well one of us seems to be having a problem. Lets go over the problems given in scripture
1) Soil #1, unable to hear and understand the gospel due to the practice of sin. But these did not start out unable to hear and understand, or fully understand.

Not true my friend Jesus gave His explanation of the different seeds and soil.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

2) They are not "of My Sheep" or open to the gospel. Perhaps they have been indoctrinated in a man-made doctrine, or have too much pride to abandon what they once thought to be true.

False; No one is a sheep until they belong to Christ.

3) And to go over old ground, Romans 3:11 does not say unable to understand the gospel at any time, but unable to when sinning or with their mind set on fleshly desires.

False again You see this would be impossible since Christ saves us while still in our sins.

4) Yes, we can change our mind, turn from a shallow lip service commitment to Christ and go all in. We can turn from treasuring Christ and worldly treasure, to discarding anything at anytime that hinders our devotion to Christ.
5) I think you have it backwards, people seek God only after experiencing "Revealing Grace."

If so you should be able to show this with scripture and you can't

6) As I said before, 2 Cor. 4:3 addresses the condition of soil #1, and not the rest of the unregenerated.

Not true againl
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
MB

 

[Dave G]

Hi Dave, did I say people can believe themselves into Christ? Nope. I do not like to waste time addressing strawman arguments.

That is what I inferred when I read this:

John 3:16 says everyone who believes into Christ shall not perish but have eternal life.

I've bolded and underlined the word exactly as it is found in the quote.

I have no idea where you think I'm making a "strawman" argument.
Perhaps you could clarify what makes you think I'm trying to erect a strawman?
I'm simply stating what I believe about the Bible and why.

How did I say someone enters into Christ spiritually? The sanctification by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit spiritually baptizes us into Christ. We are in Christ by God's doing. (1 Cor. 1:30)

I agree.
Each and every believer in "in Christ" by God's doing.

Turning to your mistaken assertions, by the numbers:
1) Ephesians 1:4 refers to God choosing the Word to by His Redeemer, and therefore those redeemed by the Redeemer were chosen in Him. As I have shown time and time again, we are chosen individually out of the world, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, we were chosen through faith in the truth meaning we had heard and understood the gospel, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and we were chosen as poor to the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. Finally we lived as not a chosen people before we were chosen, thus we were not chosen before creation, 1 Peter 2:9-10.

2) Next "of My Sheep" refers to people open to the gospel message, such as the fields white for harvest.

3) To be "given" refers to Revealing Grace, for we are called through the gospel.

4)The people who took Paul's direction to eternal life believed, Acts 13:48

5) Scripture says "your faith" has saved you. A refinement would be your faith credited by God has saved you.

Turning to my studied assertions by the numbers:

1) Ephesians 1:4 refers to God choosing people and placing them into the body of Christ.
They are chosen individually out of the world, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth ( 2 Thessalonianis 2:13-14 ).
Those that have heard and understood the Gospel are the poor of this world, rich in faith ( James 2:5 ) and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God.
They love Him because He first loved them ( 1 John 4:19 ).
Finally, believers lived not as a chosen people before we heard the Gospel of our salvation, but afterward we do.
We were chosen before the foundation of the world, "in Christ" ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), each and every one.

2) "Of my sheep" refers to God's children, who have ears to "hear" and eyes to "see" ( Matthew 13:10-17 ), which is why they believe on Christ. They are "of" ( from or by ) His sheep, which is why they believe.

3) To be "given" refers to God giving His children to Christ as a bride ( John 6:37-40, John 6:64-65, Isaiah 8:18, Hebrews 2:13, John 17:24 ).

4) The people who God ordained ( appointed, determined, commissioned ) to eternal life, believed. They took Paul's direction, because they were ordained by God to do so. The rest did not.

5) Scripture says my faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) authored and finished by my Saviour ( Hebrews 12:2 ) which came to me when I "heard" the Gospel ( Romans 10:17 ), because it was near me ( Romans 10:8 ) and I then believed with the heart and confessed with the mouth ( Romans 10:9-10 ). It was given by God to me, in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe, but to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).


May God bless you greatly, sir.

 

[Dave G]

Van,
At the end of the day, there is no "Salvation formula", I'm sorry to say.

A person is saved by the choice and power of God alone, and rests in His mercy and grace for it.
Nothing a person can do, in and of themselves, will ever make a difference.
Nothing a person can "contribute", will ever make a difference.

Salvation is of the Lord.
Every facet, every nuance, every detail and every step.

It's all of God.

 

[Van]

Not true my friend Jesus gave His explanation of the different seeds and soil.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
False; No one is a sheep until they belong to Christ.
False again You see this would be impossible since Christ saves us while still in our sins.
If so you should be able to show this with scripture and you can't
Not true again.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
MB

No need MB for you to keep posting, I understand that you are making claims of denial. We all like sheep have gone astray. Arcane versions of old say the same as the modern translations.

 

[Van]

No need to keep posting Dave, I understand you could not grasp the terms in the equation between repentance and faith and salvation. If you want to discuss actual post, fine, if you want to obfuscate why waste my time?

 

[Dave G]

No need to keep posting Dave, I understand you could not grasp the terms in the equation between repentance and faith and salvation.

I understand your "equation" just fine, sir.
In fact, I once believed as you seem to, and sat under similar teaching for over 25 years.

As far as obfuscating, I wasn't aware I was doing anything except stating what I see in Scripture, which is not the same as what you see.
But, I believe this is as good a point as any to stop replying to you, since you and I are not going to agree.


I wish you well, sir, and this is my final reply to you in this thread.

 

[MB]

No need to keep posting Dave, I understand you could not grasp the terms in the equation between repentance and faith and salvation. If you want to discuss actual post, fine, if you want to obfuscate why waste my time?

Because what you are placing on the board is not scriptural. There is a need to show just how different what you say is from scripture. Because what you say is not in scripture. You keep placing your spin on it. This is a debate forum and you don't wish to debate your view. That's too bad. I will work to disprove everything that isn't according to scripture.
MB

 

[Van]

First MB, you must stop your "against the man" devoid of scripture assertions Anyone can say "everything you post is not in scripture." That behavior, the use of logical fallacies, generates more heat than light.

Here is the formula"
Revealing Grace + Repentance + Faith + Election + Spiritual Baptism + Conversion + Indwelling = Salvation + Good Works

For example, I did not say if we come to faith, we put ourselves into Christ. You left out two separate actions by God, crediting our faith (or not) and transferring those whose faith He credits into Christ.
Thus, your post mischaracterized my view and wasted an opportunity to discuss what the bible actually says.

Do you actually deny "individual election?"

Do you actually deny "spiritual baptism into Christ?"

Do you actually deny any of the terms of the formula?

 

[Van]

Romans 6:3-7 NASB
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become [a]united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [b]in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old [c]self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be [d]done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is [e]freed from sin.

Footnotes

1. Romans 6:5 Or united with the likeness
2. Romans 6:5 Or with
3. Romans 6:6 Gr anthropos
4. Romans 6:6 Or made powerless
5. Romans 6:7 Or acquitted

 

[37818]

Yet another strawman (special pleading). Your view conflicts with scripture after scripture. Mine is consistent with all scripture. No one seeks God at any time conflicts with Matthew 23:13. Deal with it, and do not change the subject.

If the Fall caused total spiritual inability, how did they harden their heart by the practice of sin. Deal with it and do not change the subject.

You deny the plain teaching of the text Romans 3:11. And you seem to think you can control mens hearts (types of soil).

 

[Van]

Why are you repeating yourself. I addressed Romans 3:11, and my view is not going to change. Recycling your view to cause me to recycle mine does not move the ball.

Yes, I believe the lost can repent and believe. Sounds biblical to me.

 

[37818]

If the Fall caused total spiritual inability, how did they harden their heart by the practice of sin. Deal with it and do not change the subject.

It is my understanding that it is through or in the sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14) by which the lost are enabled through the hearing of God's word (John 6:45; Romans 10:14; Hebrews 4:12). But some resist the grace of God by resisting the work of God's Spirit (Titus 2:11; John 16:8-11; Acts of the Apostles 7:51). Now if you think you have a better understanding, please brake it down and explain it to us. thanks.