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Futurists cannot prove their assertions.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by David Kent, Feb 25, 2019.

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  1. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Futurist ideas are just eschatological stargazing.

    They cannot prove it because they say it hasnt happened yet, even though most of it has.

    They make the wonderful prophecy of the Messiah in Daniel 9 to be a prophecy of Antichrist.

    They make the last few verses of Daniel 11 to be of Antichrist, rather than the whole chapter being continuous history, (although I have an historicist book that teaches that those verses refer to the papal antchrist.) Both are incorrect.

    They say that jesus is "coming to the air" and then returning to heaven, but scripture says he is descending.

    Early Futurists - Jesuits.

    Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, would:
    • Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
    • Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
    • Abolish the Christian religion.
    • Deny Jesus Christ.
    • Be received by the Jews.
    • Pretend to be God.
    • Kill the two witnesses of God.
    • Conquer the world.

    Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, one of the best known Jesuit apologists, published a work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Disputationum Roberti Bellarmini De controversiis Christian fidei adversus hujus temporis haereticos, (Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time), in which he also denied the day = year principle in prophecy and pushed the reign of antichrist into a future period of 3 1/2 literal years. (See Froom, Prophetic Faith, Vol. 2, pgs. 495 - 502).

    Michael Walpole

    Available Online: A Treatise of Antichrist. Conteyning the defence of Cardinall Bellarmines arguments, which inuincibly demonstrate, that the pope is not Antichrist. Against George Downam by Michael Christopherson priest ..., Volume 1 of 2 by the English Jesuit, Michael Walpole (1570-1624?), 1613 edition. Christopherson is a pseudonym for Walpole.

    The third chapter, titled "Wherein it is shewed, that Antichrist is not yet come", (pages 49-51) discusses the protestant (Lutheran) Matthias Flacius Illyricus(1520-1575) and his Catalogue of Witnesses to the Truth who before our day cried out against the Pope (Catalogus Testium Veritatis - Basel, 1556), his Magdeburg Centuries (Ecclesiastica Historia, 1559 - 1574), an ecclesiastical history of 13 volumes (1 volume per century) to 1298 A.D. which established from that history that the Bishop of Rome was the Antichrist, and a 1260 year spiritual reign of the papal Antichrist, proposed to be from 606 - 1866 A.D., with the Lord's judgment commencing in 1866!

    Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesias en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"), under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben-Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism, his intended audience. Also an advocate of Futurism, Lacunza was deliberately attempting to take the pressure off the papacy by proposing that the Antichrist was still off in the future. His manuscript was published in London, Spain, Mexico and Paris between 1811 and 1826. Volume 1 Volume II Volume III

    [​IMG] La Venida del Mesias en Gloria y Magestad online at the National Library of Chile (in Spanish).

    Edward Irving (1792-1834), a Scottish Presbyterian and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, translated Lacunza's work from Spanish into English in a book titled The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty with a Preliminary Discourse, published in London in 1827 by L.B. Seeley & Sons, which included Irving's own lengthy preface. Here are excerpts from Irving's translation:

    Lacunza asserts that Antichrist would appear near the end of time:

    That there shall be an Antichrist; that he shall be revealed, and publicly declared, towards the last times; and that he shall commit in the world the greatest evils, making formal war against Christ, and all that pertains to him; —these are three certain things, of which no Christian can doubt. -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 195.

    Antichrist, Lacunza concludes, would not be just one man:

    ACCORDING to all the signs given in the Holy Scriptures, and others, not equivocal, offered to us by time, which is wont to be the best interpreter of the prophecies, the antichrist, or the contrachrist, with whom we stand threatened in the times immediate upon the coming of the Lord, is nothing but a moral body, composed of innumerable individuals, diverse in themselves, but all morally united and animated with one common spirit, against the Lord and against his Christ; -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 196.

    As to the harlot woman riding the beast in Revelation 17, Lacunza acknowledges it is indeed referring to Rome:

    ... the doctors do all agree, that the woman here spoken of is the city of Rome, in other times the capital of the greatest empire in the world, and now the capital and centre of unity of the true Christian church. On this first point, which is not called in question, there is no occasion to tarry. -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 240.

    ... it is not present Rome which is at all spoken of here, but future Rome alone to which the prophecy hath its determinate application. -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 251.

    Rome yes, Lacunza agrees, but not the Roman Catholic Church of his day, which he calls the true church, rather he pushes this prophecy in Revelation 17 off into the future:

    Rome, not idolatrous but Christian, not the head of the Roman empire but the head of Christendom, and centre of unity of the true church of the living God, may very well, without ceasing from this dignity, at some time or other incur the guilt, and before God be held guilty of fornication with the kings of the earth, and amenable to all its consequences. And in this there is not any inconsistency, however much her defenders may shake the head. And this same Rome, in that same state, may receive upon herself the horrible chastisement spoken of in the prophecy; -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 252.

    This apostate Christian group termed Antichrist would be:

    ... slain and destroyed by Christ himself in the great day of his coming in glory and majesty.

    Note that Lacunza wrote under a false name to hide the fact that he was Catholic. His book was banned by the Vatican agin as a subterfuge.

    Irving was a Church of Scotland minister who was excommunicated for his heretic views on whether Crist would be able to sin. He was also leader of the heretical Charismatic tongues, prophecy , signs movement. Each of their churches had an angel and 12 prophets. Irving, as far as can ascertain, was also the first preach on dispensationalism on Christmas day 1825.

    The teaching of his church was that the rapture would occur in the summer of 1833, and on the named day they all assembled to await the event.

    The Albury meetings on prophecy

    Annual meetings to discuss the new ideas on prophecy were held at Albury, the home of Henry Drummond a notable Irvingite. One of those attending was Lady Powerscourt.

    Lady Powerscourt then held similar meetings in Powercourts, Ireland. Amongst those attending these meetings were Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby. This appears to be where Darby got his dispy ideas from, although he didn't seem to develop them until later.

    Ouside the Plymouth Brethren and the rmaining Irvingites churches, now named The Catholic Apostolic Church, his teaching on prophecy was widely considered a herecy till the late 19th century.
    Darby and other Brethen seemed to visit the US during the civil war, and the rot started.
     
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  2. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    Excellent rebuttal, David. This was especially fitting after @robycop3 finished his thread about Preterists with the assumption that he has proven his case. Only those who are willing to admit that they may be wrong are open-minded enough to be taught, especially when it comes to interpreting Scripture.
     
  3. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for that historical outline David... As I've heard it said and futurist follow it today... What was created for you was a Protestant Purgatory, which you bought into, hook, line and sinker... And history proves it!... Brother Glen:)
     
    #3 tyndale1946, Feb 25, 2019
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  4. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    Now that is a comparison I'd never heard :Roflmao. Probably a silly question (as if I'd let that stop me), but from your comment, I am guessing you are NOT a futurist. (You may have told me once before, but my memory ain't what it used to be. Actually, my memory is more of a "never was" than "not what it used to be.)
     
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    NEVER in my 50 years in The Old Line/Old School Sovereign Grace Baptist Church I grew up in... Was their any mention of Armageddon, The Rapture or a 1,000 years reign... Our preachers, preached when Christ returns to raise the dead and to gather up his own, he's taking them home to Heaven... If it not what's the Resurrections for?... Not to hang around an play millennium games:rolleyes:... Chase your fantasy but brother its not for me!... Brother Glen:)
     
  6. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    AMEN, Brother Glen. I would think that's pretty unusual for any Evangelical church, but especially for Baptists. This "latter-day stargazing" is just a distraction from the core of the Gospel. People tend to be looking for Jesus to come instead of being content that He should already be living in their heart.
     
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  7. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    But even without getting in to a rapture, a millenium, or Armageddon, what about the New Heavens and New Earth? 2 Peter 3:13.
     
  8. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    What about it?
     
  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Read Isaiah on that term. And then follow through on subsequent references.
     
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Actually, we CAN prove our case easily.

    If I hurl a baseball at a glass window, I can predict (not PROPHESY) that the ball will break the window, before the ball hits it. Thus, when we see the literal fulfillment of parts of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, we can safely predict the rest will cometa pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

    History and reality PROVE many of those prophesied events haven't yet occurred. there's just NO getting by that mountain of FACTS. But we know by faith arising from the fulfillments of parts of these prophecies that the rest WILL cometa pass.
     
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  11. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    Actually, history proves the events prophesied actually have occurred. It's just that those who hold the "futurist" view refuse to recognize their fulfillment.
     
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  12. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    To say history proves prophesied events HAVE occurred I think is quite a stretch.I've read the preterist and partial preterist position and while it has some interesting points I'm far from being convinced. As for me I still lean on a futurist way of thinking
     
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  13. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, I don't blame you. I held the "futurist" view for about 30 years, and it took quite a bit to convince me (about 10 years ago). I'm sure we at least agree that part of the Olivet Discourse points to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
     
  14. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    You have not proved anything any more than your Jesuit friends did.

    Many of the Olivet prophecies were fulfilled figuratively.
     
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  15. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Yes I believe when Jesus said the stones of the temple would be overthrown it was sometime in that 1st Century. Titus who was a general in the Roman army at the time invaded Jerusalem.
     
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  16. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    While we disagree regarding our views of the End Times, I'm sure we can agree that it doesn't matter which of us is right. We aren't going to change anything that was or will be in the future. Our mission is to obey the Great Commission. Neither my faith nor anything else in my life really changed with my switch to the Partial Preterist view. I enjoy reading about and discussing eschatology, but I don't really try to convince anyone else of my particular view. I'll discuss this topic any time - until it turns into an argument. We should not let minor differences come between us as brothers in Christ.
     
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  17. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    REALLY?

    Then, please tell us who the 'beast' was. (Please don't insult our intelligence by saying it was Nero.)

    Who was his sidekick, the false prophet?

    What did the FP cause his boss' statue to say in the temple?

    What did the marka the beast look like?

    When did all life in the sea die?

    When was all green grass burned up?

    Why has Jesus not returned when He said He'd return immediately after the great trib?
     
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  18. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I don't have any jeezit friends. I don't even know any jeezits.

    No, they weren't. They were either fulfilled LITERALLY, or they've not yet been fulfilled. Betcha can't prove otherwise!
     
  19. Lodic

    Lodic Well-Known Member

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    The Beast of the Sea was Nero. (You didn't really expect me to give you a different answer, did you? :).
    The False Prophet was Apostate Israel, who had aligned themselves with Rome.
    Based on what the Bible says, what makes you think any statue ever said anything?

    The Mark of the Beast didn't look like anything. In Revelation 7:3-8 we see the 144K "marked" (or "sealed") as belonging to God. Consider Ezekiel 9:4-6, where God sets a "mark" upon His people. These are not literal marks.

    Neither all life in the sea literally died, nor did all green grass literally burn up. This is symbolic language describing the destruction of the Jewish Wars.

    Why is it that you recognize that when Jesus said He'd return "immediately" that you believe He means "immediately", yet you twist "soon" and "shortly" to mean something else? Jesus DID return - in judgment, not literally. Also, the tribulation was "great" upon Jerusalem (with over 1 million killed), but it was not a world-wide tribulation as futurists maintain.
     
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  20. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Sir, I'm trying hard to maintain some decorum & politeness in this dialogue, but, after the intel I posted about Nero, along with some Scriptural criteria for the beast that nero didn't fulfill, to still say Nero was the beast is JUST PLAIN GOOFY ! You may check out the facts about Nero I posted in any decent world history book or encyclopedia. He was no more the beast than Charles Manson was.


    Rev. 13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

    Once again, Scripture proves a pret point wrong!

    GUESSWORK!
    As these events haven't yet happened, you don't know if the marx will be literal or not upon the 144K. But they definitely will be upon the followers of the beast.

    MMRRPP ! WRONG !
    they'll be part of the great trib.

    Must I remind you of Matt. 24:29:30. Jesus said they will SEE THE SON OF MAN coming !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    As I said, preterism is man-made & false; it's "proof" is all imagination and guesswork. History makes lies outta every pret assertion!

    Again, not trying to be smart-aleck, but, while I have presented Scripture & historical facts, all YOU'VE presented has been opinion, imagination, & guesswork. Again, history makes a shambles outta preterism! I hope the HOLY SPIRIT opens your eyes to realize you've been fed quite a load of baloney by the preterists! They can't prove a thing they say![/QUOTE]
     
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