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Spiritual death has been "passed" from Adam

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Feb 24, 2019.

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  1. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    to clarify, I know we are sinners condemned already. We just can't blame Adam for our sins.
     
  2. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Romans 5:13,14
    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, (Like Adam) that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    Does redemption (from the death) have anything to do with destroying the works of the devil?

    Why was redemption (from death) the plan before the foundation of the world?

    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.Luke 20:35,36

    Why was the figure, Adam, made a little lower than the angels? Why was the Son of Man made a little lower than the angels?

    So the works of the devil could be destroyed, when the man who was created good, very good, is redeemed, from the power of the devil? The death?
     
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    The mind of God before the foundation of the world was to adopt sons of God. God purposely created Adam of the flesh to be redeemed and thus adopted as a son of God. The law, thou shall not eat of it, could not give that kind of life to Adam. Thou shall not eat of it was weak in the flesh. The lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. Gal 4:4,5

    Again, what law brought the need for redemption? It was given only to one man. Why? Why did all from Adam to Moses die?
    What law was the Son of God born under?
     
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Was Satan ever good? Did God create him as evil? If he was ever good when did he go bad? If everything was good, very good, what was Satan doing in the garden God planted and put the man he had created good, very good? Not equal to nor higher than the angels but a little lower than the angels, for some reason.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    That is not what I am saying. I am saying that you, me and the whole human race existed as one undivided human nature "in adam" and when Adam acted you and I acted as we were Adam. Hence, the human nature became spiritually dead, depraved, dark and at enmity toward God. That is what you ARE by nature and that is why you come into this world already condemned and the proof is that you are subject to death even in the womb. That is precisely the argument set forth by Pau in Romans 5:12-19. He asserts that position in verse 12. He proves that position in verses 13-14 by eliminating all violations of law that could be responsible for universal death except the violation of Genesis 2:17. He then states it repeatedly over and over again "by one man's disobedience MANY be dead...condemned....made sinners."

    So, the truth is that you are guilty for violating Genesis 2:17 because you existed and acted as one undivided human nature in one man - Adam in the best possible conditions and in the best possible condition.
     
  6. Ran the Man

    Ran the Man Active Member

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    1. To argue they were only metaphorically "dead" means they were only metaphorically "quickened" and thus only metaphorically "saved" as this quickening is described as being "saved."

    Hence the Nicene Creed stating "I beleive in the Resurrection of the body", correct?
     
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  7. Ran the Man

    Ran the Man Active Member

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    But if Adam were morally good, how could he sin? This part I have been asked by many unbelievers.
     
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  8. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    It is the purpose of God to destroy the work of the Devil by redeeming sinners

    The physical was created a place to hold and offer redemption to the condemned

    Man and thus Jesus was lower than the angels, normal unfallen angels

    So the works of the devil could be destroyed, when the man who was created good, very good, is redeemed, from the power of the devil? The death?[/QUOTE]

    Redemption of sinners and end of unpardoned sin . The devil hs no power unless God allows it
     
  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    they were already spiritually dead, but after sin they were able to physically be able to die.

    I know what you are saying but God says
    Eze 18:20

    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
     
  10. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    we all agree man is physical and spiritual. He was not spiritually "good" but unaccountable as a baby, Not innocent. Physically as the entire physical world was without sin until Adam.. Remember. Satan and others were here but as purely spiritual beings could not affect the physical
     
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Please provide documentation that this is Mormon and Islam teaching.
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Book, chapter and verse please to prove this ridiculous assertion? I have disproven this many times now and you have nothing to say but repeat the same false assertion. He was created morally "upright" in fellowship with God and that is impossible for a spiritually dead man. Spiritual death is part of death and death did not enter the world until he sinned. Of course if you want to be ignorant then have at it.


    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.[/QUOTE]

    I have thoroughly repudiated your view of this verse and all you can do is repeat but can't give a single answer to the mountain of evidence I provided. This is speaking about fallen mankind. This is not speaking about representatives for mankind. You must reject that Jesus Christ was your representative if you reject Adam as your representative. So, this argument robs you of any Savior and salvation. However, if you want to be wrong, So, be wrong!
     
  13. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Big picture, Why was the universe created?
    .
    Jesus said "let the dead bury their dead" to physically alive Jews. How are they dead? but able to bury their dead.
    Mat 8:22
    But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the deadbury their dead.

    Jesus says sin occurs in the heart not the body and if your body, hand, "offend" or keep you from spiritual cut it off.
    The body does not sin but the soul
    Mat 5:28
    But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    Mat 5:30

    And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

    Adam (man in Hebrew) was not a representative but a co sinner, he was the first to be human which is part of redemption
     
  14. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    And there is none righteous, no not one; Other than Jesus and 2 Cor 5:21 is said of him.

    And IMHO to understand that, compare 2 Cor 5:16-21 with Romans 8:1-4 and also 1 Cor 15:45,46

    The last Adam came as the first Adam, died by shedding his faithful blood to the sinful flesh and was quickened to the Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, thus manifesting the righteousness of God, of which, we also can be imputed with.

    And every bit of that was foreordained before the foundation of the world and would be the means by which the devil and his works, would be destroyed.

    He needed destroying prior to Adam being created regardless of weather Adam had yet through sin allowed the death into the newly renewed system, world. IMHO the devil did not become a problem to God after Adam was created but was a problem before Adam was created. the first Adam would be the beginning to the solution in the flesh through the the dying on the last Adam in the flesh. Then 2 Cor 5:
    Textus Receptus
    ὥστε εἴ τις ἐν Χριστῷ καινὴ κτίσις τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν ἰδού γέγονενκαινά τὰ πάντα
    Morphological GNT
    ὥστε εἴ τις ἐν Χριστῷ καινὴ κτίσις τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν ἰδοὺ γέγονενκαινά
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    To help with those who ask - Adam was not created "morally good" or "morally evil".
    Adam was created without sin (God did not author Adam's sin). Adam sinned because while created in God's image he was not created as God's moral equivalent. Adam sinned.
     
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  16. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    The devil is destroyed by redeeming those who sinned with him.
    Redemption of lost all you will repent, then destruction of those who wont repent

    save the children,first
    Heb 2:14

    Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
     
  17. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    nope He was a condemned sinner , but the first to be a human, necessary for redemption

    Why do you think the physical universe exists? who is here?
     
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    God created the physical universe so that everything wouldn't occupy the same place at the same time.
    God created time so that everything wouldn't happen all at once.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I don't worry about whether or not the physial universe exists. The question never crossed my mind.
     
  20. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    It was created to hold Satan and the fallen angels , the key is the verses with " darkness"
     
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