A Biblical Based view of Penal Substitutionary Atonement

Are you incapable of reading plain English or reading, much less interpreting Greek? Your statement about 2 Thessalonians 2:13 puts on public display pure ignorance of both English and Greek. Election occurred "before the foundation of the world" thus before personal faith.

 

Election is not corporate but personal and individual as the individual can know his own personal individual election by God (1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Pet. 1:10) and Paul always uses personal pronouns "us...you" (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13) rather than saying "chosen a people".

Neither 2 thes. 2;13 or 1 Pet.2:9-10 support your view but repudiate it as personal pronouns are used in both rather than some vague "people". The "end" of our faith is not glorification here but justification aspect of salvation. The prophets did not know the "time" of his advent as that is what they searched.

 

Back on the topic of our OP and that is that the atonement was "substitionary" and "Penal" in nature. some have attempted (van) to derail the OP to argue on side issues rather than the topic. This OP is not about election, or general versus particular atonement. If that is what you want to debate open a thread and debate it, but this thread is establishing the substitutionary and penal nature of the atonement.

 

Get back on topic or get off my thread. The question is whether the atonement is "substitionary" in nature and is "penal" in nature. Do you deny it has a substitionary character? Do you deny it has a penal character?

If you continue to derail this thread I will report you.

 

I have asked you to stay on subject with the OP but you continue to change the OP from the substitionary and penal character of the law to a debate about election.

"hath chosen us BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" - Eph. 1:4 When did the election take place? Van says "during our lifetime" while Paul says "before the foundation of the world" Who do you believe? Van or Paul?

Same God as in Ephesians 1:4 , same election as in Ephesians 1:4, same time as in Ephesians 1:4, and as Van admits it is not "corporate" but personal and individual"

Says no such thing!

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Election is not salvation but election is unto salvation (2 Thes. 2:13). The elect came into this world like all other sinners as "children of wrath even as others" (Eph. 2:3) in an unregenerate condition.
Note this text gives no point in time when they were chosen and if Van says it does he is simply not telling the truth. Election is only known by the elect after their salvation as salvation is proof of their previous election (1Thes. 1:4-5). In Ephesians 1:4 this "before the world" election was for the purpose that "WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS BEFORE HIM IN LOVE." Again, election is unto salvation rather than salvation unto election as Van says. Van argues from silence as there is no time designation provided by Peter in this text and Van knows it.

Now, I have asked you politely to stick to the OP but you continue to attempt to derail this thead over election. This thread is not about election but about whether the atonement is substitutionary and penal in character. I said I would report you if you continued and so I am.

 

I must have copied your identity line before answering Van on another thread. I have asked him twice to stop attempting to derail the thread that deals with whether the atonement is substitionary and penal in character. He continues to try to debate individual or corporate election and thus derail the thread. I told him if he keeps on doing it I would report him and I did. Sorry that it came up on this thread and in a response to you it was accidental.

 

PSA is not restricted to a Calvinist application of election. There are Arminians who embrace PSA and a general atonement but claim PSA in application of the atonement.

I said no such thing. I said we were chosen TO SALVATION and it is SALVATION that comes through sanctification (setting apart by) of the Spirit AND beleif of the truth of the gospel. Get your facts right when you want to say what a person believes or does not believe. The term "salvation" in the Greek text is found in the accusative case and is the direct object of the choosing action.

Straw man argument because I never said 1 Peter 2:9-10 said we were chosen before we lived as it does not address the time relationship. Neither does it say we were chosen WHEN or AFTER we beleived either as that is simply wishful thinking on your part. If you are going to talk about the time relationship between faith and election than deal with texts that explicitly address that issue like Ephesians 1:4 or 2 Thess. 2:13 where election precedes salvation as the choice is TO salvation, and thus TO santification and belief of the truth as that is the chosen means whereby salvation occurs in time.

Right! Now apply that order to 1 Thessalonians 2:13! Election is when God chooses an individual "to salvation" whereas salvation is when God's Spirit sets them apart (by regeneration which spiritually unites them in Christ) and belief of the truth is when they are positionally, judicially put into Christ.

This comes from your own imagination and is a straw argument. Both 1Thes. 1:4-5 and 2 Pet. 1:10 both clearly are addressed to believers whom Paul says they can know they are the elect by how the gospel came to them (Thessalonians) and the effects of new birth (Peter). Just read the text.

What you said is that we lived as a people while not being a chosen people, which is absurd because election took place before we existed (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13). Just as the nation of Israel is God's elect people before that nation is actually saved (Ezek. 36:26-27; Jer. 31:31-34; Rom. 11:25-28).

You demonstrate that you have no grasp of the subject as Arminians also embrace PSA as it is not restricted to Calvinism. Those who embrace a general atonement believe in a limited application to believers based on PSA.

 

I know many Free Will Baptists that hold to PSA who deny they Arminians and deny they are Calvinists. They admit to total depravity but believe "drawing" is universal and liberates the will to believe or continue in unbelief but preach substitionary penal atonement when it comes to application.

As you know, my position is based upon Biblical types and precepts with total disregard toward "traditions" in history.