A Biblical Based view of Penal Substitutionary Atonement

[Van]

Sigh, more misinterpetation of God's word on public display! The time of being chosen was "before the foundation of the world" and I don't think anyone was around prior to that to believe!!!! In time, we were "quickened" (Eph. 2:1) and the quickened are the ones who can "make their calling and ELECTION sure" because they now are in light, have the Holy Spirit and are capable of discerning the truth. Sigh!

Right, it is misinterpretation that Peter 2:9-10 precludes being chosen individually before creation. Or James 2:5 requires the chosen to be rich in faith and that they love God. Then we have 2 Thessalonians 2:13 where we are chosen through faith in the truth, which means after we heard the gospel and lived not as His chosen people. Only one view fits all of scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

Then we have 2 Thessalonians 2:13 where we are chosen through faith in the truth, which means after we heard the gospel and lived not as His chosen people. Only one view fits all of scripture.

Are you incapable of reading plain English or reading, much less interpreting Greek? Your statement about 2 Thessalonians 2:13 puts on public display pure ignorance of both English and Greek. Election occurred "before the foundation of the world" thus before personal faith.

 

[Van]

Well, at least one of us is unwilling or unable to grasp that because we lived not as a chosen people, the election before creation had to have been corporate.

 

[Van]

Well, at least one of us is unwilling or unable to grasp that because we lived not as a chosen people, the election before creation had to have been corporate.

Only those who deny 1 Peter 2:9-10 claim the election of Ephesians 1:4 was individual and not corporate. Or they dodge the issue and belittle the messenger.

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, at least one of us is unwilling or unable to grasp that because we lived not as a chosen people, the election before creation had to have been corporate.

Only those who deny 1 Peter 2:9-10 claim the election of Ephesians 1:4 was individual and not corporate. Or they dodge the issue and belittle the messenger.

Election is not corporate but personal and individual as the individual can know his own personal individual election by God (1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Pet. 1:10) and Paul always uses personal pronouns "us...you" (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13) rather than saying "chosen a people".

Neither 2 thes. 2;13 or 1 Pet.2:9-10 support your view but repudiate it as personal pronouns are used in both rather than some vague "people". The "end" of our faith is not glorification here but justification aspect of salvation. The prophets did not know the "time" of his advent as that is what they searched.

 

[The Biblicist]

Back on the topic of our OP and that is that the atonement was "substitionary" and "Penal" in nature. some have attempted (van) to derail the OP to argue on side issues rather than the topic. This OP is not about election, or general versus particular atonement. If that is what you want to debate open a thread and debate it, but this thread is establishing the substitutionary and penal nature of the atonement.

 

[Van]

Biblicist claims election is individual, not corporate. My view has our individual election occurring during our lifetime. So once again there seems to be no grasp of the topic.

Did I say 2 Thessalonians 2:13 was a corporate election? No, of course not. So again no grasp of the actual topic.

Did I say 1 Peter 2:9-10 addresses our corporate election? Nope. The passage says we lived while not a chosen people of God. Therefore our individual election occurs during our lifetime.

Next, PSA is a Trojan horse for Limited atonement, but since Christ died for the sin of the world (John 1:29) the PSA claim Christ died only for the sins of the individuals chosen before creation is as bogus as a 3 dollar bill. This is where the corporate election of Ephesians 1:4 repudiates PSA's basic assumption.

In summary, Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross provides the price of redemption for everyone transferred into Christ, thus Christ died for all mankind, although only those put into Christ receive that reconciliation, because the penalty for their individual sins is removed by the circumcision of Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist claims election is individual, not corporate. My view has our individual election occurring during our lifetime. So once again there seems to be no grasp of the topic.

Did I say 2 Thessalonians 2:13 was a corporate election? No, of course not. So again no grasp of the actual topic.

Did I say 1 Peter 2:9-10 addresses our corporate election? Nope. The passage says we lived while not a chosen people of God. Therefore our individual election occurs during our lifetime.

Next, PSA is a Trojan horse for Limited atonement, but since Christ died for the sin of the world (John 1:29) the PSA claim Christ died only for the sins of the individuals chosen before creation is as bogus as a 3 dollar bill. This is where the corporate election of Ephesians 1:4 repudiates PSA's basic assumption.

In summary, Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross provides the price of redemption for everyone transferred into Christ, thus Christ died for all mankind, although only those put into Christ receive that reconciliation, because the penalty for their individual sins is removed by the circumcision of Christ.

Get back on topic or get off my thread. The question is whether the atonement is "substitionary" in nature and is "penal" in nature. Do you deny it has a substitionary character? Do you deny it has a penal character?

If you continue to derail this thread I will report you.

 

[Van]

Get back on topic or get off my thread. The question is whether the atonement is "substitionary" in nature and is "penal" in nature. Do you deny it has a substitionary character? Do you deny it has a penal character?

If you continue to derail this thread I will report you.

My post #67 was on topic, indicating PSA is bogus. How could we be individually chosen before creation yet not be chosen people? Or why did Christ become the propitiation or means of salvation from God's wrath for the whole world, if He only died for some of the world. No answer will be forthcoming.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist claims election is individual, not corporate. My view has our individual election occurring during our lifetime. So once again there seems to be no grasp of the topic.

I have asked you to stay on subject with the OP but you continue to change the OP from the substitionary and penal character of the law to a debate about election.

"hath chosen us BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" - Eph. 1:4 When did the election take place? Van says "during our lifetime" while Paul says "before the foundation of the world" Who do you believe? Van or Paul?

Did I say 2 Thessalonians 2:13 was a corporate election? No, of course not. So again no grasp of the actual topic.

Same God as in Ephesians 1:4 , same election as in Ephesians 1:4, same time as in Ephesians 1:4, and as Van admits it is not "corporate" but personal and individual"

Did I say 1 Peter 2:9-10 addresses our corporate election? Nope. The passage says we lived while not a chosen people of God. Therefore our individual election occurs during our lifetime.

Says no such thing!

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Election is not salvation but election is unto salvation (2 Thes. 2:13). The elect came into this world like all other sinners as "children of wrath even as others" (Eph. 2:3) in an unregenerate condition.
Note this text gives no point in time when they were chosen and if Van says it does he is simply not telling the truth. Election is only known by the elect after their salvation as salvation is proof of their previous election (1Thes. 1:4-5). In Ephesians 1:4 this "before the world" election was for the purpose that "WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS BEFORE HIM IN LOVE." Again, election is unto salvation rather than salvation unto election as Van says. Van argues from silence as there is no time designation provided by Peter in this text and Van knows it.

Now, I have asked you politely to stick to the OP but you continue to attempt to derail this thead over election. This thread is not about election but about whether the atonement is substitutionary and penal in character. I said I would report you if you continued and so I am.

 

[JonC]

I have asked you to stay on subject with the OP but you continue to change the OP from the substitionary and penal character of the law to a debate about election.

"hath chosen us BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" - Eph. 1:4 When did the election take place? Van says "during our lifetime" while Paul says "before the foundation of the world" Who do you believe? Van or Paul?



Same God as in Ephesians 1:4 , same election as in Ephesians 1:4, same time as in Ephesians 1:4, and as Van admits it is not "corporate" but personal and individual"

Says no such thing!

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Election is not salvation but election is unto salvation (2 Thes. 2:13). The elect came into this world like all other sinners as "children of wrath even as others" (Eph. 2:3) in an unregenerate condition.
Note this text gives no point in time when they were chosen and if Van says it does he is simply not telling the truth. Election is only known by the elect after their salvation as salvation is proof of their previous election (1Thes. 1:4-5). In Ephesians 1:4 this "before the world" election was for the purpose that "WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS BEFORE HIM IN LOVE." Again, election is unto salvation rather than salvation unto election as Van says. Van argues from silence as there is no time designation provided by Peter in this text and Van knows it.

Now, I have asked you politely to stick to the OP but you continue to attempt to derail this thead over election. This thread is not about election but about whether the atonement is substitutionary and penal in character. I said I would report you if you continued and so I am.

Why are you quoting me with Van's words?

It's like that movie....Split.

 

[The Biblicist]

Why are you quoting me with Van's words?

It's like that movie....Split.

I must have copied your identity line before answering Van on another thread. I have asked him twice to stop attempting to derail the thread that deals with whether the atonement is substitionary and penal in character. He continues to try to debate individual or corporate election and thus derail the thread. I told him if he keeps on doing it I would report him and I did. Sorry that it came up on this thread and in a response to you it was accidental.

 

[Van]

The subject is PSA. PSA is a bogus unbiblical assertion.

1) Did Christ die only for the elect chosen individually before creation? PSA says yes, but scripture precludes any individual chosen before they lived not as a people chosen by God.

2) Biblicist claims we were chosen through faith in the truth before we were created. That dog will not hunt. Biblicist also claims 2 Thess. 2:13 does not say we were chosen through faith in the truth. Just read it folks.

3) 1 Peter 2:9-10 does say we were chosen after we lived not as chosen people. Therefore the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate and cannot be individual. Saying "taint so" is no rebuttal.

4) Did anyone equate salvation with election? Nope. Election is when God chooses an individual for salvation, whereas salvation is when God puts an individual spiritually into Christ.

5) Next we get the absurd claim, if we do not know we were chosen, then scripture can claim we were not chosen but actually we were. There seems to be no limit to the absurdity the defenders of bogus doctrine will use.

6) Did Van say we are saved before we are chosen? Of course not, but guess who made that absurd claim too.

Folks the discuss is over, PSA is as bogus as a 3 dollar bill. It has been unmasked as a Trojan Horse for Limited Atonement.

In summary, Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross provides the price of redemption for everyone transferred into Christ, thus Christ died for all mankind, although only those put into Christ receive that reconciliation, because after they are put into Christ spiritually, the penalty for their individual sins is removed by the circumcision of Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

1) Did Christ die only for the elect chosen individually before creation? PSA says yes, but scripture precludes any individual chosen before they lived not as a people chosen by God.

PSA is not restricted to a Calvinist application of election. There are Arminians who embrace PSA and a general atonement but claim PSA in application of the atonement.

2) Biblicist claims we were chosen through faith in the truth before we were created.

I said no such thing. I said we were chosen TO SALVATION and it is SALVATION that comes through sanctification (setting apart by) of the Spirit AND beleif of the truth of the gospel. Get your facts right when you want to say what a person believes or does not believe. The term "salvation" in the Greek text is found in the accusative case and is the direct object of the choosing action.

3) 1 Peter 2:9-10 does say we were chosen after we lived not as chosen people. Therefore the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate and cannot be individual. Saying "taint so" is no rebuttal.

Straw man argument because I never said 1 Peter 2:9-10 said we were chosen before we lived as it does not address the time relationship. Neither does it say we were chosen WHEN or AFTER we beleived either as that is simply wishful thinking on your part. If you are going to talk about the time relationship between faith and election than deal with texts that explicitly address that issue like Ephesians 1:4 or 2 Thess. 2:13 where election precedes salvation as the choice is TO salvation, and thus TO santification and belief of the truth as that is the chosen means whereby salvation occurs in time.

4) Election is when God chooses an individual for salvation, whereas salvation is when God puts an individual spiritually into Christ.

Right! Now apply that order to 1 Thessalonians 2:13! Election is when God chooses an individual "to salvation" whereas salvation is when God's Spirit sets them apart (by regeneration which spiritually unites them in Christ) and belief of the truth is when they are positionally, judicially put into Christ.

5) Next we get the absurd claim, if we do not know we were chosen, then scripture can claim we were not chosen but actually we were. There seems to be no limit to the absurdity the defenders of bogus doctrine will use.

This comes from your own imagination and is a straw argument. Both 1Thes. 1:4-5 and 2 Pet. 1:10 both clearly are addressed to believers whom Paul says they can know they are the elect by how the gospel came to them (Thessalonians) and the effects of new birth (Peter). Just read the text.

6) Did Van say we are saved before we are chosen? Of course not, but guess who made that absurd claim too.

What you said is that we lived as a people while not being a chosen people, which is absurd because election took place before we existed (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13). Just as the nation of Israel is God's elect people before that nation is actually saved (Ezek. 36:26-27; Jer. 31:31-34; Rom. 11:25-28).

Folks the discuss is over, PSA is as bogus as a 3 dollar bill. It has been unmasked as a Trojan Horse for Limited Atonement.

You demonstrate that you have no grasp of the subject as Arminians also embrace PSA as it is not restricted to Calvinism. Those who embrace a general atonement believe in a limited application to believers based on PSA.

 

[Van]

1) Yes Calvinists and Arminians use the term PSA, but with the Arminians denying limited atonement.
The doctrines (PSA and Limited Atonement) remains unbiblical.

2) James 2:5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say we were chosen through faith in the truth, and we were rich in faith, were heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God.

Therefore we were chosen individually during our lifetime. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says we lived not as a chosen people and not having obtained mercy, precluding being chosen individually before creation. Saying "taint so" is no rebuttal. Just read it folks.

 

[JonC]

PSA is not restricted to a Calvinist application of election. There are Arminians who embrace PSA and a general atonement but claim PSA in application of the atonement.



I said no such thing. I said we were chosen TO SALVATION and it is SALVATION that comes through sanctification (setting apart by) of the Spirit AND beleif of the truth of the gospel. Get your facts right when you want to say what a person believes or does not believe. The term "salvation" in the Greek text is found in the accusative case and is the direct object of the choosing action.



Straw man argument because I never said 1 Peter 2:9-10 said we were chosen before we lived as it does not address the time relationship. Neither does it say we were chosen WHEN or AFTER we beleived either as that is simply wishful thinking on your part. If you are going to talk about the time relationship between faith and election than deal with texts that explicitly address that issue like Ephesians 1:4 or 2 Thess. 2:13 where election precedes salvation as the choice is TO salvation, and thus TO santification and belief of the truth as that is the chosen means whereby salvation occurs in time.



Right! Now apply that order to 1 Thessalonians 2:13! Election is when God chooses an individual "to salvation" whereas salvation is when God's Spirit sets them apart (by regeneration which spiritually unites them in Christ) and belief of the truth is when they are positionally, judicially put into Christ.



This comes from your own imagination and is a straw argument. Both 1Thes. 1:4-5 and 2 Pet. 1:10 both clearly are addressed to believers whom Paul says they can know they are the elect by how the gospel came to them (Thessalonians) and the effects of new birth (Peter). Just read the text.

What you said is that we lived as a people while not being a chosen people, which is absurd because election took place before we existed (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13). Just as the nation of Israel is God's elect people before that nation is actually saved (Ezek. 36:26-27; Jer. 31:31-34; Rom. 11:25-28).

You demonstrate that you have no grasp of the subject as Arminians also embrace PSA as it is not restricted to Calvinism. Those who embrace a general atonement believe in a limited application to believers based on PSA.

Not to speak for @Van ,but the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is restricted to Protestant Theology. There are some who believe that the true church existed apart from the Roman Catholic Church (throughout history) and that while not abundant their voices are still present. For these people, Penal Substitution Theory is just an attempt at reforming what should have been abandoned.

 

[The Biblicist]

Not to speak for @Van ,but the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is restricted to Protestant Theology. There are some who believe that the true church existed apart from the Roman Catholic Church (throughout history) and that while not abundant their voices are still present. For these people, Penal Substitution Theory is just an attempt at reforming what should have been abandoned.

I know many Free Will Baptists that hold to PSA who deny they Arminians and deny they are Calvinists. They admit to total depravity but believe "drawing" is universal and liberates the will to believe or continue in unbelief but preach substitionary penal atonement when it comes to application.

As you know, my position is based upon Biblical types and precepts with total disregard toward "traditions" in history.

 

[JonC]

I know many Free Will Baptists that hold to PSA who deny they Arminians and deny they are Calvinists. They admit to total depravity but believe "drawing" is universal and liberates the will to believe or continue in unbelief but preach substitionary penal atonement when it comes to application.

As you know, my position is based upon Biblical types and precepts with total disregard toward "traditions" in history.

I do not care enough about the Free Will Baptists to respond in detail. While they affirm the same Catholic dogma to which many Protestants cling, that is of no interest to me. They go wrong long before their rejection of Beza.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another non-answer. Why does God credit our faith in Christ as righteousness?
He does not realize he could not have faith, and therefore could not have been chosen through faith, before he was born. Deflection and denial are all this PSA advocate has to offer.

God gives to His elect in Christ saving faith, so why would we be be getting any credit for salvation? And God selects those to whom Christ death will be personally applied towards, which is based upon His sovereign will and not our own!

 

[Yeshua1]

Right, it is misinterpretation that Peter 2:9-10 precludes being chosen individually before creation. Or James 2:5 requires the chosen to be rich in faith and that they love God. Then we have 2 Thessalonians 2:13 where we are chosen through faith in the truth, which means after we heard the gospel and lived not as His chosen people. Only one view fits all of scripture.

Our saving faith is given to us by the Holy Spirit Himself, as no sinner has faith inherit within himself, correct?