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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Mar 2, 2019.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There is actually no direct evidence for the resurrection outside the Christian New Testament and the regeneration of the believer by way of that record (1 John 5:9-11).
     
    #41 37818, Mar 7, 2019
  2. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    So far all we have is your statement on that point.
     
    #42 church mouse guy, Mar 7, 2019
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Methinks somewhere in the equation is, the Spirit of Truth.The Comforter Jesus said they would receive. But, here is something Jesus also said concerning the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth.

    if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; ---- You will not receive the Comforter. the Spirit of Truth if I do not go away.

    Gal 3:14 YLT hat to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.

    The Faith has something to do with the Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, being received. Also the Faith has something to do with the going away of Jesus. The Faith was the going away of Jesus, Going away in suffering unto death of which, he feared.

    Heb 5:7,8 YLT who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, ----- The Son, Jesus, learned obedience of faith, shed his blood/life, became obedient unto death even the death of the cross <Phil 2:8

    It was the Father who had faith in the blood of the Son and the Son who had faith in the one who could save him from death.

    Phil 2:9 wherefore, also, (the obedience of faith) God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that is above every name,


    I agree, Have faith of God!
     
    #43 percho, Mar 8, 2019
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So do you or do you not believe Matthew, Peter, John and Paul saw the risen Christ first hand? Why or why not? What extra Biblical record proves it?
     
    #44 37818, Mar 8, 2019
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    This would be where genuine Christians personal experience would come in. (Romans 8:16)
     
    #45 37818, Mar 8, 2019
  6. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    You continue to assert without proof and post points about Scripture which I have conceded long ago. Do you or don't you have any proof that the ancient world did not mention the resurrection of Jesus since we know that there are many references to His life and it would take some time to review them all. And scientific archeological evidence has been used to prove the historicity of Scripture since Creation.
     
    #46 church mouse guy, Mar 8, 2019
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You are not understanding the issue. The issue is there is no resurrection evidence without the Christian New Testament documents. None what so ever. The fact is we do have the New Testament documents. And as far as I know, any other "evidence" are in addition to. I dare say none of them provide evidence of the resurrection.
     
    #47 37818, Mar 8, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Would you consider others of the time evidence? Josephus for one,, Go to this site and read if you wish.
    The Biblical World: Josephus on the Resurrection and the Challenge of Apologetics.
    You can read what Josephus wrote and comments by men about Josephus I do not know anything about.
    MB
     
    #48 MB, Mar 8, 2019
  9. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    You just asked above what historical proof proves the ressurection. And you are the one that has said that there is none. All I have said is that you are unable to prove that. Josephus has been mentioned by two of us and there might be others.
     
    #49 church mouse guy, Mar 8, 2019
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The witness of others is not at issue. But witnesses who actually saw the resurrected Christ. Which we have with in the New Testament documents.
     
    #50 37818, Mar 8, 2019
  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    For myself I count each disciple who wrote about it as separate witnesses. I have read there are others who witnessed it and was there as well I just don't remember who they were. Out of all of them I think Thomas was the best witness because he was the doubter. He had to feel Jesus and touch His wounds. Which for him it must have been an awesome experience.Thomas's investigation showed how real it all was especially because he was known as the doubter.
    MB
     
    #51 MB, Mar 8, 2019
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Josephus is a secondary who at the very least establishes historically there was a Jesus referred to as the Christ. And is believed to cite about the resurrection. Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus | CARM.org

    But only the New Testament is actual evidence of this event.
     
    #52 37818, Mar 8, 2019
  13. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Your statement that only the New Testament is actual evidence of this event just is not scientifically true. There is archeological evidence also such as the evidence about Pilate and about Caiaphas.
     
    #53 church mouse guy, Mar 8, 2019
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So what evidence do we have which predates the New Testament documents which connect Pilate and Caiaphas to Jesus as the Christ?
     
    #54 37818, Mar 9, 2019
  15. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Now you are asking a different question.
     
    #55 church mouse guy, Mar 9, 2019
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Christianity stands and falls on the Christian New Testament. And the argument is that the only actual evidence of Christ's resurrection are those documents which make up the New Testament. All extra Biblical "evidence" are ultimately contingent on it.

    There is corroborating evidence, which demonstrates the veracity of the New Testament documents.

    Again the only evidence of the resurrection of Christ are the New Testament documents. And of course regeneration of us believers as a result.
     
    #56 37818, Mar 9, 2019
  17. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I think that you contradict yourself.
     
    #57 church mouse guy, Mar 9, 2019
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Please cite my two contradictory statements.

    As a Baptist I hold that the Christian New Testament is the sole Apostolic authority of the Christian faith. Genuine Christianity stands and falls by the Christian New Testament. The Christian New Testament being the sole real evidence of the resurrection of Christ.

    I became a Christian on the notion that I could know for sure when I died that I would go to Heaven. That notion is based on the understanding that the Bible to be the word of God and that God cannot lie.

    Just merely because I had believed that did not make it true. So either it is true or it is not. The phenomena of the gospel of grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone causes one to actually know God. And this is found originally in the Christian New Testament alone.
     
    #58 37818, Mar 10, 2019
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    How we know anything has to do with three key things.
    First, our personal experience.
    Second, the witness of others.
    Third, logical deduction.

    And in each of these we believe a thing by which it becomes our preceived knowledge.

    The written records we call the Bible is a witness of others.
     
    #59 37818, Mar 22, 2019
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    How we know anything is important.

    Restating the order by which we know anything:
    1. Our personal experience.
    2. Our own thinking.
    3. The witness of others.

    The last item here, the witness of others, is the basis by which we know most things.

    Now as Christians we should know what we know with absolute certainty in regards to salvation and knowing God pesonally.
    Our source is our Bible.

    It is a translation (a witness of others) of manuscripts (witness of others) handed down (witness of others).

    The documents that make up our Bible have internal claims to be from God.

    Now connecting the Biblical witness to our personal experience with God (the new birth). There is our personal understanding and thinking and logic which we make conclusions.

    Our understanding of God comes from the Bible. And our thinking (logical deductions) we are able to conclued we know for sure.

    Now I skipped a lot of details here.
     
    #60 37818, Jun 23, 2019
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