1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Spiritual death has been "passed" from Adam

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Feb 24, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I see. You confused my statement with a definition. It's a common mistake.....I guess. :rolleyes:
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    It seems that this discussion centers around your understanding and application of the term "moral." Why can't you accept that "moral" cannot be limited to conduct or to a code, but primarily defines character? This is the way it is used in scripture as the writers use moral terms "righteousness" and "unrighteousness" not merely to describe conduct but to define character. God describes his own character in moral terms.

    No moral code was provided mankind until Moses, and yet character had been defined in moral terms since creation. The law REVEALS the nature of God's moral character as righteous and holy in contrast to the nature of man's moral character as unrighteous and unholy.
     
  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    94
    Faith:
    Baptist
    but we agree that sin exists without a moral code?
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The problem, for me, goes back to the RCC. I do not believe that this forensic view of the Atonement is legitimate. It is a hold over from the Roman Catholic Church (it is a Reformed doctrine....a Protestant idea). I believe that the Church has existed throughout the centuries plagued by Catholic doctrine. I believe that true church doctrine has existed along side the falseness presented by the Catholic Church. So I believe that prior to any idea of forensic justificaiton there has existed a justification (and a righteousness) that stands apart from the law.

    That is, granted, my view among other ideas. But it is where I stand. I do not believe the true church is Protestant nor do I believe it is dependent upon Protestant doctrine. That said, I do not deny that God has used both the Catholic and Protestant Church.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    "the righteousness which is of the law" refers to righteousness obtained by obedience to the law. Christ did not obey the law to be righteous and we cannot obey the demands of the law whether lost or saved. Why? Because the righteousness demanded by the law requires is above and beyond what we are capable of doing as demands being perfect "EVEN AS God is perfect" and "being holy EVEN AS God is holy." Hence, it reveals what kind of righteousness belongs exclusively to sinless beings. Righteousness is not obtained by obedience to law either by Christ or by us, it simply reveals the righteousness that characterizes Christ - sinlessness. Hence, righteousness must be imparted and imputed but never is obtained by obedience because if you have to obey it to obtain it, it proves you are already disqualified, already failed, already violated it.
     
  6. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    94
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Can one sinless man save many? If one was sinless but not God how many are saved?
     
  7. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    While taking a quick glance over the thread titles on the forum title page I saw:

    Spiritual Death has been "passed" from Admin

    :eek:

    Carry on...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    According to the Divine Law that governs the rules of atonement (Leviticus) one without spot and blemish can suffer and be put to death "for the people...because of their transgresssions" (Lev.16).

    American, Roman and Jewish jurisprudence denies the just can suffer for the unjust but divine jurisprudence which governs atonement demands that only the "just" can be an atonement for the unjust.
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Physial death is the consequence, not the cause of spiritual death. We are subject to physical death in the womb from the time of conception and thus there must be a cause for physical death inseparable from our own person while in the womb for that to be so.
     
  10. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    94
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We are not under the Law, We sin on our own and as the Law shows our sin, we still suffer the consequences of that sin as all did from Adam to Moses who had no knowledge of the Law. Physical death is not the consequences of sin, spiritual death is.The physical suffers from the sin but is not the sin.

    If one man. one guy, lived a sinless physical life, who would have eternal life?
     
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Never said we are! I said it is Divine Law = God's Word that governs and defines atonement and that is revealed in the book of Leviticus. Jesus was born under the Law and Jesus did fulfill the divine demands as a proper atonement which are determined and defined by God's Law/Word.
     
  12. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    94
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You only respond to phrases you choose. Answer the last question.

    If one man. one guy, lived a sinless physical life, who would have eternal life?
     
  13. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    .



    Joke-Goes-Over-Your-Head-Star-Trek 2-Gif.gif
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,838
    Likes Received:
    128
    Wrong.
    And Moses gave nothing to "mankind".
    The Mosaic Law was for the Jews.
    Mankind in general has always had a moral code, and they are abundantly aware of it.
     
  15. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    94
    Faith:
    Baptist
    MORE DEFLECTION, what is your answer?

    If one person, one normal person WAS sinless, would they get to go to heaven?
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    How do you explain the universal language used by Paul in Romans 3:19-20 and the singular "Law"?

    19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
     
  17. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    94
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Rom 2:12

    For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

    The law did not make them sinner, it makes us understand our guilt
     
  18. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,838
    Likes Received:
    128
    There's nothing to explain.
    Every man is under law.
    Even those without Torah are a law unto themselves.
    But the Torah was given to the Jews, not gentiles.
    The Universal Moral Law is eternal, universal, understood by all man and not disputed.
    Moses didn't give "mankind" that law, he gave God's covenant people their Torah.

    Do you labour under the assumption that "Thou shalt not murder" was some unique new revelation not ever comprehended by man?

    Did Moses have to flee Egypt after killing the Egyptian because Pharaoh read the Pentateuch?
    Did Cain fear losing his life because of what was written in Exodus 20?
    Does Genesis 9 prescribe the death penalty for the shedder of blood because of the Ten Commandments?
    God doesn't need the Torah to condemn, it wasn't written to you anyway.
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    No, I basically agree with you. However, neither the law of conscience or the law of Moses was the basis of universal death between Adam and Moses. But, there was the law in Genesis 2:17 that was the basis for universal death and Paul makes a very clear and repetitive case that was the law that brought universal death upon all mankind.
     
  20. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,371
    Likes Received:
    2,405
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Six Hour Warning
    This thread will be closed sometime after 11 PM Pacific.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...