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Featured Atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Mar 20, 2019.

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  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Consequential death. In other words, the penalty for sin was satisfied in the punishment and death of Christ on the cross.

    You DO believe in PST. You just admitted it.
     
    #141 Reformed1689, Mar 23, 2019
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I still do not know how God can freely justify lost sinenrs and stay being Holy if PST is not correct!
     
    #142 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2019
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How can we be delivered from the wrath of god though if Jesus did not suffer that wrath on our behalf?
     
    #143 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2019
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Because there is no condemnation in Christ. We die to sin and live for, in, and through Christ. A difference is that I do not believe moral transgressions form a debt that must be paid. believe that we are made new creations in Christ. There is no debt to be paid because we are redeemed by the work of Christ (we belong to Him as our Master, not sin).
     
    #144 JonC, Mar 23, 2019
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    There can be reconciliation apart from sin penalty been paid for though, and the wrath of God propitiated!
     
    #145 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2019
  6. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Right, there is no debt to be paid because CHRIST PAID IT.
     
    #146 Reformed1689, Mar 23, 2019
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    What you are saying does not make sense? We know that those "in Christ" are not condemned but that does not address "why" they are not condemned when all outside of Christ are condemned. Does God have a two teir justice system when dealing with sin?

    I think the word "debt" is a smoke screen! I did not ask about "debt" I asked if violation of law carries a legal lawful condemnation that demands a penalty? If it does carry a penalty then what is that penalty? How can any sinner be removed from a condemned status to a non-condemned status without that penalty being satisfied IF sinners without Christ must personally satisfy it themselves?

    What was the cultural meaning and application of the Greek term translated "It is finished" uttered by Christ on the cross?
     
    #147 The Biblicist, Mar 23, 2019
  8. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Of course it does. And Colossians 2:14 explains this.
     
    #148 Reformed1689, Mar 23, 2019
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How can the Wrath of God demanded towards sin and law breakers be appeased apart from Jesus receiving in Himself the due penalty we all deserved?
     
    #149 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2019
  10. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Why are you asking me this?
     
    #150 Reformed1689, Mar 23, 2019
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe that those who are condemned are condemned because they do not believe in Christ. That is the condemnation, and because of their disbelief they remain in their sins.

    I think "it is finished" refers to the redemptive act. The "mission" is accomplished.
     
    #151 JonC, Mar 23, 2019
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You mean to say that there cannot be reconciliation apart from the penalty being paid.

    The wrath of God is propitiated so we have that in common, but I do not agree sin created a penalty to be paid before reconciliation could take place.
     
    #152 JonC, Mar 23, 2019
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    There is but one Doctrine of Penal Substitution.
    If our Lord did not take the punishment (Isaiah 53:5), curse (Galatians 3:13) and death (Romans 5:12; Isaiah 53:8) that God has decreed (e.g. 1 Thessalonians 1:6-8; Deuteronomy 28:26; Ezekiel 18:4) due to fallen mankind, then whatever we are left with is either not penal, or not substitution.
     
    #153 Martin Marprelate, Mar 23, 2019
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I can definitely accept that there is only one Penal Substitution Theory. I was merely explaining what I meant by drawing a distinction between penal and substitutionary elements of the atonement and Penal Substitution Theory itself.

    Even with his departure from some teachings N.T. Wright has affirmed that his view (which rejects Christ as experiencing divine punishment) falls within Penal Substitution Theory. TGC website has an article stating the same. I am only saying that my view, while affirming what J.I. Packer refered to as the "elements" of Penal Substitution Theory, does not agree with the Theory as a whole.

    That said, if others want to define my view as Penal Substitution Theory, that's OK with me. The value is in discussing doctrine rather in the title used.
     
    #154 JonC, Mar 23, 2019
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, was meant for Jon C!
     
    #155 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2019
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  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NT Wright viewpoint in regards to the Atonement of Christ clearly falls well outside the standard Reformed view as described by Calvin, Hodge, Berkhof, and as explained by various Baptists themselves!
     
    #156 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2019
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I thought so too. But Wright and that article on TGC (a Reformed site) insists it is within the bounds of Penal Substitution Theory.

    So the Theory extends beyond what I thought.
     
    #157 JonC, Mar 23, 2019
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God demands that any and all sin that we have done be paid for by someone....
     
    #158 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2019
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    It is not within how Reformed and Calvinistic Baptists have seen it though is my point.... IF you looked this up in any standard reformed Theology book, the views of NT Wright would not be supported there in regards to how to view the atonement...
     
    #159 Yeshua1, Mar 23, 2019
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is what I thought, but we both have to consider the views of others here.

    Perhaps that is why it is best just to talk about our views rather than what we would call them.
     
    #160 JonC, Mar 23, 2019
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