The Conundrom.

[Gup20]

Again, the key to understanding this is election:

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,

God did not choose His elect based on anything they would do in the future, including faith. He predestined His elect, "according to the kind intention of His will" (Ephesians 1:5). Election comes before repentance and faith. As far as being of God prior to conversion, that is an incorrect assumption. No one is "of God" until they are converted. Paul, (referring to the Christian's prior spiritual condition) writes, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Ephesians 2:1-3). Before we are converted we are "children of wrath". That is certainly not "of God".

Incorrect. The very passage you cite (Eph 1) tells us that election comes after faith.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, afterlistening to the message of truth, the gospelof your salvation--having also believed, you were sealedin Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 11:17
“Therefore if God gave to them the same giftas He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ,who was I that I could stand in God's way?”

Just how does God choose whom His “elect” people are?

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy peopleto the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen youto be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenantand His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose AbramAnd brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You,And made a covenant with himTo give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginningwho they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reasonI have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenantsand the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Calvin didn’t realize that allChristians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.

 

[Aaron]

Arminaism and Calvinism share some beliefs.
...
Here is the difference, regeneration after faith in Christ versus regeneration before faith in Christ.

The real difference is one's view of man. Man in his fallen state is either capable of choosing repentance and faith toward God, or he is not. Non-calvinists says he is, Calvinists say he is not.

 

[Benjamin]

Ok. So how are we of God prior to being born again?

Seems to beg the question of predestination of the elect.

The Divine Order of salvation is clearly presented in Eph 1:13, but the Determinist/Predestinarian attempts to distort that view to force fit his systematic theology. To ignore or change the inspired order is false doctrine.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[37818]

Again, the key to understanding this is election:

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,

God did not choose His elect based on anything they would do in the future, including faith. He predestined His elect, "according to the kind intention of His will" (Ephesians 1:5). Election comes before repentance and faith. As far as being of God prior to conversion, that is an incorrect assumption. No one is "of God" until they are converted. Paul, (referring to the Christian's prior spiritual condition) writes, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Ephesians 2:1-3). Before we are converted we are "children of wrath". That is certainly not "of God".

Yet being of God, of the truth is prior to hearing, John 8 :47; John 10:26-27; John 18:37.

The election as prior (Ephesians 1:4) is wholy void of any kind of merit on the part of those who God has elected. That constitutes a condition.

 

[37818]

The real difference is one's view of man. Man in his fallen state is either capable of choosing repentance and faith toward God, or he is not. Non-calvinists says he is, Calvinists say he is not.

I am not Calvinist, and unless God in some way causes men to be capable, men are not (Romans 3:11). I understand the word of God to teach faith prior to regeneration.

 

[Benjamin]

My post was sarcasm, fyi, kinda sorta aimed at the likes of @Reformed and other robots following the script that claim 'regeneration before faith', but say couldn't be no more than a nanosecond before.

Aw, well, if your refuting the doctrines of the likes of @Reformed then I guess we be aight then.

 

[Benjamin]

I am not Calvinist, and unless God in some way causes men to be capable, men are not (Romans 3:11). .

Yet, you seem to rest on a doctrine of Total Inability to respond to the power of the Gospel off that one verse? Such would amount to having God playing both sides of the chessboard, so much for commands and judgment...

 

[37818]

Seems to beg the question of predestination of the elect.

The Divine Order of salvation is clearly presented in Eph 1:13, but the Determinist/Predestinarian attempts to distort that view to force fit his systematic theology. To ignore or change the inspired order is false doctrine.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Does not address being of God, being God's sheep, of the truth prior to hearing, John 8:47; John 10:26-27; John 18:37.

 

[37818]

Yet, you seem to rest on a doctrine of Total Inability to respond to the power of the Gospel off that one verse? Such would amount to having God playing both sides of the chessboard, so much flyor commands and judgment...

God solely does the saving. The lost do not understand the will of God in the matter, trusting in some kind of merit on their part, Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[Benjamin]

Does not address being of God, being God's sheep, of the truth prior to hearing, John 8:47; John 10:26-27; John 18:37.

Me thinks you read Predestinarianism into those verses to force fit a doctrine while ignoring many MANY other factors which explain the true meanings and refute Determinism's Total Inability doctrines.

I read those verses and Progressive Revelation comes to mind, the fulfillment of Christ and the promise He brought to all mankind.

 

[Reformed]

Yet being of God, of the truth is prior to hearing, John 8 :47; John 10:26-27; John 18:37.

This is where our disagreement presents itself. A sinner is spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13) and incapable of appropriating spiritual truth while in that state (Romans 8:7; 1 Corinthians 2:14). Ergo, the sinner cannot exercise faith because he is unable to do do. There is a reason Paul used the Greek word νεκροσ (nekros) in Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13. That word is typically used for a corpse, a dead body. When used in the context of these two passages it describes a condition wherein the individual is alive physically but dead spiritually. But even this needs further explanation. Even though a sinner is spiritually dead it does not mean the sinner is devoid of immaterial existence. Man is both physical and spiritual (immaterial). When Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13 is viewed in light of Romans 8:7 and 1 Corinthians 2:14, we understand that the sinner is dead to the things of God. Something needs to happen to make the sinner capable of hearing and responding in faith. That "something" is the work of the Holy Spirit. Read:

Ephesians 2:4-5 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Even when we were dead in our transgressions (trespasses and sins), God made us alive together with Christ. Note that the passage does not say that we first heard the Word and believed. The sinner is not capable of doing that because he is dead to the things of God. Does the sinner hear the Word and respond by faith? Absolutely! The sinner believes by faith after the Holy Spirit makes him capable of doing that very thing. That is why I can say a hearty "Amen!" to Acts 16:31 when Paul and Silas said the Philippian jailer, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." It was not necessary for Luke to write in Acts 16 that regeneration had to precede faith. Paul does the heavy theological lifting in Romans, Ephesians, and Colossians.

 

[37818]

Me thinks you read Predestinarianism into those verses to force fit a doctrine while ignoring many MANY other factors which explain the true meanings and refute Determinism's Total Inability doctrines.

I read those verses and Progressive Revelation comes to mind, the fulfillment of Christ and the promise He brought to all mankind.

Making this claim does not solve anything. Give a Biblical solution. For John 8:47 or John 8:26-27 or John 18:37 or all.

 

[Benjamin]

God solely does the saving.

You should understand that it is obvious you've bought into Calvinist's dogma to repeat this strawman argument and that no one (non-Calvinist) that I have EVER witnessed believing that he/she saves themselves.

The lost do not understand the will of God in the matter,...

No one knows the mind of God.

Now, a translation that does not impose Total Inability doctrines into John 8:47:
"He that is of God - That either loves or fears him, heareth - With joy and reverence, God's words - Which I preach."

...trusting in some kind of merit on their part, Matthew 7:21-23.

Again, don't know any meat eating non-Cal that believes he merits salvation in any way. I'd keep that merit business in mind both before and after salvation if I were you. - Meaning the Determinist typically looks for obedience for proof he was predestined to believe.

 

[Reformed]

Making this claim does not solve anything. Give a Biblical solution. For John 8:47 or John 8:26-27 or John 18:37 or all.

I did. Just say you do not agree with it. It makes things much easier. Trust me. I am fine with disagreement.

 

[Benjamin]

Making this claim does not solve anything. Give a Biblical solution. For John 8:47 or John 8:26-27 or John 18:37 or all.

You don't seem to even understand that you begging the question that these verses prove Total Inability (anyone ever told you to take off the glasses before? ) doesn't need a solution in my eyes. You are asking me to prove a negative. But, I'd maybe be willing to refute your interpretations leading to Total Inability...

 

[37818]

This is where our disagreement presents itself. A sinner is spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13) and incapable of appropriating spiritual truth while in that state (Romans 8:7; 1 Corinthians 2:14). Ergo, the sinner cannot exercise faith because he is unable to do do. There is a reason Paul used the Greek word νεκροσ (nekros) in Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13. That word is typically used for a corpse, a dead body. When used in the context of these two passages it describes a condition wherein the individual is alive physically but dead spiritually. But even this needs further explanation. Even though a sinner is spiritually dead it does not mean the sinner is devoid of immaterial existence. Man is both physical and spiritual (immaterial). When Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13 is viewed in light of Romans 8:7 and 1 Corinthians 2:14, we understand that the sinner is dead to the things of God. Something needs to happen to make the sinner capable of hearing and responding in faith. That "something" is the work of the Holy Spirit. Read:

Ephesians 2:4-5 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Even when we were dead in our transgressions (trespasses and sins), God made us alive together with Christ. Note that the passage does not say that we first heard the Word and believed. The sinner is not capable of doing that because he is dead to the things of God. Does the sinner hear the Word and respond by faith? Absolutely! The sinner believes by faith after the Holy Spirit makes him capable of doing that very thing. That is why I can say a hearty "Amen!" to Acts 16:31 when Paul and Silas said the Philippian jailer, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." It was not necessary for Luke to write in Acts 16 that regeneration had to precede faith. Paul does the heavy theological lifting in Romans, Ephesians, and Colossians.

". . . regeneration had to precede faith . . . ." How does that preceding the hearing? ". . . He that is of God heareth . . . ." ". . . My sheep hear . . . ." ". . . of the truth heareth . . . ."

 

[37818]

. . . these verses prove Total Inability . . .

That being true does not answer the how prior hearing those are enabled to hear.

 

[Reformed]

". . . regeneration had to precede faith . . . ." How does that preceding the hearing? ". . . He that is of God heareth . . . ." ". . . My sheep hear . . . ." ". . . of the truth heareth . . . ."

How can someone who is dead hear? I am not talking about hearing words, I am talking about "spiritual" hearing. The Holy Spirit first makes spiritual hearing possible through regeneration. I know we disagree about this and that is OK. I just want to make sure you understand what I am saying.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Gup20]

I am not Calvinist, and unless God in some way causes men to be capable, men are not (Romans 3:11). I understand the word of God to teach faith prior to regeneration.

The Bible explicitly says than man is capable of choosing salvation:

Deuteronomy 30:1
So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

Deuteronomy 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Deuteronomy 30:11
For this commandment which I command you todayis not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heavenand earthto witnessagainst you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose lifein order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Deuteronomy 30, talking about the choice of salvation by faith, says 3 times it is a choice God sets before man. It says it is not too difficult nor out of reach (in other words man is capable of making the choice). It says the choice is not made by God in heaven.

Lest you think Deuteronomy 30 isn’t talking about salvation by faith, Paul sets the record straight:

Romans 10:5
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on lawshall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faithspeaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”
8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

 

[Gup20]

Does not address being of God, being God's sheep, of the truth prior to hearing, John 8:47; John 10:26-27; John 18:37.

Galatians 3:8
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSEDIN YOU.”

So Abraham was made righteous because God preached the gospel to him and he believed the gospel! This means Abraham was the first “Christian” – the first person saved by grace through their faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul confirms that Abraham was indeed the first believer:

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessedwith Abraham, the believer.

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.”

Galatians 3:26 (NASB) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 (NASB) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 8:15-17 (NASB) 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Our faith qualifies us as adopted sons & daughters of God but first we qualify for human adoption as sons of Abraham. God promised Abraham that all of his descendants would inherit the righteousness God gave him in Genesis 15:5 (Gen 17:7).