LOL. The Law shows us what we cannot do. As Paul said, it is weak through the flesh. But under a New Covenant, we are partakers of the divine nature, and we walk after the Spirit.
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The Conundrom.
- Thread starter 37818
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Gup20
Active Member
Unbiblical? I just gave you the verses my view came from! You can claim I’m misinterpreting and we can have a conversation about it, but my view is exactly the view explained in detail by Paul in Romans 4, Galatians 3. You can’t legitimately claim my view is unbiblical.
As to being “of God” - you are ascribing a particular meaning to this phrase that is not defined nor warranted by the verse. Being “of God” could mean “chosen to be forced into the kingdom of God against your will” as you believe, or it could mean “God knows you will eventually choose him” as I believe. Because it is undefined in the verses where it’s used, you have to be careful about how you ascribe meaning.
For example, if you look at a verse like this:
John 6:64
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
Here we see Jesus defines being “of God” as those who e knew would believe. In none of the scriptures you referenced does it say he made them to believe or made them capable of believing or caused them to believe... but here we do see that God’s foreknowledge of who does believe is the primary qualification factor of those granted access to Christ.
We know from multiple scriptures the sequence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in relation to faith.
Acts 11:17 (NASB)
"Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
If it is your belief that one must be “enabled” to hear prior to faith (to be of God), I’m curious by what mechanism the hearing is enabled seeing as how we are not given the Holy Spirit until after we have believed, and we cannot believe until after we have heard the gospel.
So, excluding the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which both scriptures above clearly say comes after belief, how does someone become able to hear?
Perhaps the simplest answer is true - you are improperly ascribing your own meaning to being “of God.”
Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB) "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB) "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
Deuteronomy 30:11-15 (NASB) 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
LOL. Deuteronomy refutes nothing about Calvinism. It establishes it.
Here, let me show you:
Do not covet.
Now, go do that.
What do you mean you can't? Doesn't Paul say if we do what's written in the law we shall live?
Gup20
Active Member
Paul talks about two covenants; the law & faith in the gospel. You have to look back to the first person saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ to understand when the covenant of faith was created.
Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
The Law of Moses came 430 years after God had already ratified the covenant of faith in the gospel with Abraham. This means that The Law has never existed outside of the covenant of faith, but the covenant of faith does exist outside of and apart from the Law. Paul makes the point:
Galatians 3:15 (NASB) Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
Paul is saying the covenant of faith was ratified 430 years before the law, and once ratified, you can’t add conditions to the covenant... so The Law didn’t modify the covenant of faith.
Galatians 3:26 (NASB) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:29 (NASB) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
So yes, Deuteronomy 30 can and is spoken to those under the covenant of faith. All Christians are saved by becoming qualified for the blessing & covenant & oath God made with Abraham for his faith in the gospel of Christ.
Romans 4:5-13 (NASB) 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
The Holy Spirit’s indwelling is “circumcision of the heart.”
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Colossians 2:11 (NASB)
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
What is the context of Deuteronomy 30?
Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB) "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
So I disagree with your assessment that Deuteronomy 30 is about the covenant of The Law. Certainly it is in regards to the very covenant of faith by which we are all qualified to be in Christ.
Gup20
Active Member
Paul also says that The Law is unable to impart life, and that the covenant of faith came & was ratified 430 years before the law... and that once ratified it cannot be modified or have conditions added to it.
Galatians 3:10-14 (NASB) 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:21 (NASB) Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
The weakness of The Law is that it is unable to impart life to any who have sinned, or upon any who have been credited with sin in Jesus case.
2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Isaiah 53:6 (NASB)
All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
Having become a curse for us, and baring all of our iniquity, and redeeming is with righteousness, Christ himself was cursed by the Law and it couldn’t impart life to him unless there was another way.
Galatians 3:19 (NASB) Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
This begs the question- why does God promise that life would come through faith and then make that promise TO Christ? Is it because Jesus himself was raised from the dead by the covenant of faith?
Hebrews 13:20 (NASB)
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
Jesus wasn’t resurrected by the law - it has no power to impart life to the dead... only the power to kill the living. Jesus was resurrected by the very same covenant of faith that we are. This is why scripture says the promise was spoken to Abraham but being made to his seed, Christ.
So when Deuteronomy 30 says “I have set before you life & death... the blessing & the curse” don’t you suppose it’s taking about the covenant of faith which is the only one that can impart life?
Gup20
Active Member
This is a personal choice.
Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB) "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
Deuteronomy 30:11-15 (NASB) 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
37818
Well-Known Member
The issue here in this thread is how God gives us the ability to hear Him. Otherwise we would all not heed Him (Romans 3:11).
37818
Well-Known Member
Not really. Your view, requires you to believe in more than one type of adoption in the Bible. My view is that the adoption is the future event, ". . . now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. . . ." -- 1 John 3:2. ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 8:23.
The Apostle Paul is the only New Testament writer to use that term, meaing to be "placed as a son," translated with the word "adoption" in the English.
Romans 8:15.
Identified as the yet future event, Romans 8:23.
Romans 9:4.
Galatians 4:5.
Ephesians 1:5.
Gup20
Active Member
I disagree. There is only one adoption, but there is a partial & then full inheritance based upon that adoption.
Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
The Holy Spirit dwelling in us (the circumcision of the heart) is a pledge of the full inheritance yet to come.
Luke 19:9 (NASB) And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
Interesting how Jesus names the way one is qualified for salvation here in Luke.
Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
Genesis 17:4-7 (NASB) 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
I would say Moses supports it too... saying Abraham would be the Father of many nations and then promising the eternal covenant to those descendants from many nations. I sometimes say the Jews were the original “replacement theologians” when they decided this covenant was to one nation alone.
God grants to His own sheep their ears to hear, and hearts to respond to Him, as before he regenerates them, all are in a dead and dumb state!
37818
Well-Known Member
That still denies the adoption as only being that future event of being "placed as a son," Romans 8:23 (1 John 3:2).
37818
Well-Known Member
Fine. But that does not address how in time the sheep are God's sheep before He regenerates them.
The become His sheep once God regenerates and saves them in real time.
37818
Well-Known Member
No. They are God's sheep in order to hear. Hearing preceds faith and faith precede regeneration.
The Holy Spiirt must translate them out of the Kingdom of Satan into that of Jesus, so indeed goats becoming sheep!
37818
Well-Known Member
Nice idea. Goats to sheep, but has no Biblical support.
". . . through sanctification of the Spirit . . ." Then there is John 17:17.
Sinners are goats, as in lost and dead in sins until saved!
37818
Well-Known Member
Ah, no. Matthew 25:31-46. ". . . as . . ." v.32. The sheep are sheep in order to hear, John 10:26, ". . . ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, . . ." ". . . hearing they hear not . . ." -- Matthew 13:13.
All of us before saved are deaf and dumb to God, correct?
37818
Well-Known Member
The goats are those who are not saved. Matthew 25:31-46.