Revelation 6:9-11

[Dayle]

The majority view is that the resurrection of the Saints that Paul speaks about in 1 Thessalonians 2, 2 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15, takes place before the Anti-Christ come on the scene.
Many believe it could happen at any moment.

Revelation 6:9-11 is the opening of the fifth seal which speaks of souls under the altar asking when their death would be avenged. They are told they must wait until their fellow servants and brethren who would be killed is completed.

So who are these souls and why were they not resurrected with the other Saints?
When will they be resurrected?

 

[canadyjd]

They aren't resurrected. Thay are the souls/spirits of those who have died prior to the resurrection.

 

[Dayle]

They aren't resurrected. Thay are the souls/spirits of those who have died prior to the resurrection.

I am confused by your post.
Could you explain?

 

[37818]

The majority view is that the resurrection of the Saints that Paul speaks about in 1 Thessalonians 2, 2 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15, takes place before the Anti-Christ come on the scene.
Many believe it could happen at any moment.

Revelation 6:9-11 is the opening of the fifth seal which speaks of souls under the altar asking when their death would be avenged. They are told they must wait until their fellow servants and brethren who would be killed is completed.

So who are these souls and why were they not resurrected with the other Saints?
When will they be resurrected?

I hold all who will die for Christ will be resurrected prior to the rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. And the Jesus has only the two appearings in the schem of things per Hebrews 9:28. That Matthew 24:29 and the 6th seal Revelation 6:12 are one and the same event. And that the wrath of God in Revelation 6:17, Revelation 11:18, Revelation 16:19, and Revelation 19:15 refer to the same point in time.

 

[Dayle]

I hold all who will die for Christ will be resurrected prior to the rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. And the Jesus has only the two appearings in the schem of things per Hebrews 9:28. That Matthew 24:29 and the 6th seal Revelation 6:12 are one and the same event. And that the wrath of God in Revelation 6:17, Revelation 11:18, Revelation 16:19, and Revelation 19:15 refer to the same point in time.

So what do you call the "rapture" and when does it happen in relation to the resurrection?

 

[canadyjd]

I am confused by your post.
Could you explain?

The resurrection will return our spirits to our physical bodies, which will be transformed into a glorified body such as the glorified body of our Lord Jesus (no, we don't become Gods, but the glorified body will follow the example of the resurrected body of Jesus).

The "souls" of those under the altar are the spirits of those killed by persecution that are waiting for the glorification of Jesus through the Day of the Lord and the return to their resurrected bodies.

 

[Iconoclast]

They are those who died in the first century tribulation.

 

[Dayle]

They are those who died in the first century tribulation.

The resurrection will return our spirits to our physical bodies, which will be transformed into a glorified body such as the glorified body of our Lord Jesus (no, we don't become Gods, but the glorified body will follow the example of the resurrected body of Jesus).

The "souls" of those under the altar are the spirits of those killed by persecution that are waiting for the glorification of Jesus through the Day of the Lord and the return to their resurrected bodies.

Still not clear---
If the resurrection happens before the anti-Christ comes as most teach, why are these not resurrected also?
Why are they not part of the first resurrection?

 

[MB]

The majority view is that the resurrection of the Saints that Paul speaks about in 1 Thessalonians 2, 2 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15, takes place before the Anti-Christ come on the scene.
Many believe it could happen at any moment.

Revelation 6:9-11 is the opening of the fifth seal which speaks of souls under the altar asking when their death would be avenged. They are told they must wait until their fellow servants and brethren who would be killed is completed.

So who are these souls and why were they not resurrected with the other Saints?
When will they be resurrected?

My explanation is that those under the alter haven't been resurrected because the rapture hasn't happen yet. John is in the spirit when he see's the vision he is talking about. He actually see's them under the throne. This part isn't prophecy it is fact. Not everything in revelations is prophecy. It is also about what he see's where he is, as well as what he is told. John is being told of things present and things to come.
MB

 

[canadyjd]

Still not clear---
If the resurrection happens before the anti-Christ comes as most teach, why are these not resurrected also?
Why are they not part of the first resurrection?

I believe scripture teaches a post tribulation rapture.

 

[Dayle]

My explanation is that those under the alter haven't been resurrected because the rapture hasn't happen yet. John is in the spirit when he see's the vision he is talking about. He actually see's them under the throne. This part isn't prophecy it is fact. Not everything in revelations is prophecy. It is also about what he see's where he is, as well as what he is told. John is being told of things present and things to come.
MB

I believe scripture teaches a post tribulation rapture.

Seems we three are not in agreement with the majority of our breather.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am leaning to postmillenial teaching.

I believe Hebrews and Revelation are given to the struggling persecuted Church. To let them know of our victorious Lord and King.
It allows them to see Him ruling and Reigning from Heaven Rev4,5...Hebrews12..
And with us All The days.mt28

 

[TurnTheTide1611]

The majority view is that the resurrection of the Saints that Paul speaks about in 1 Thessalonians 2, 2 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15, takes place before the Anti-Christ come on the scene.
Many believe it could happen at any moment.

Revelation 6:9-11 is the opening of the fifth seal which speaks of souls under the altar asking when their death would be avenged. They are told they must wait until their fellow servants and brethren who would be killed is completed.

So who are these souls and why were they not resurrected with the other Saints?
When will they be resurrected?

They were martyred after the partial pre-trib rapture. They will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4.

Why are they not part of the first resurrection?

They are part of the first resurrection, and will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years, along with the saints that were raptured prior to the tribulation.

 

[Dayle]

They were martyred after the partial pre-trib rapture. They will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4.




They are part of the first resurrection, and will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years, along with the saints that were raptured prior to the tribulation.

"Partial pre-trib rapture"?
Now that is a new one on me.

Is there Scripture that you can show me that supports this?

 

[MB]

"Partial pre-trib rapture"?
Now that is a new one on me.

Is there Scripture that you can show me that supports this?

I think He is speaking of the 144000 who stay and minister to the lost.
MB

 

[robycop3]

They are those who died in the first century tribulation.

The GREAT trib hasn't yet occurred. Proof? Matt. 24:29-30. Jesus will return immediately after the trib; He said so Himself in those verses.

 

[Iconoclast]

The GREAT trib hasn't yet occurred. Proof? Matt. 24:29-30. Jesus will return immediately after the trib; He said so Himself in those verses.

Roby
Many believe the return of mt. 24
Was not the second coming, but rather a coming in judgment, as He promised those alive at that time...you know the verses that say there are some standing here who shall not see death until they see these things come.
They would be pretty old if they were still waiting there now.

 

[TurnTheTide1611]

"Partial pre-trib rapture"?
Now that is a new one on me.

Is there Scripture that you can show me that supports this?

The partial pre-trib rapture refers to the idea that not all believers are raptured, but only the ones that are watching and waiting for the Lord's return, that are walking with God, seeking the kingdom, etc. Basically, if you are living in good fellowship with God in terms of your practical walk with Christ, you will be accounted worthy to be part of the pre-trib rapture.

Three passages to support this would be:

Luke 21:34-36
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You will only escape all these things (i.e. the tribulation just mentioned earlier in he chapter) if you are accounted worthy.

(And to try to head off the objection before someone makes it: This view does not entail a works based salvation - but it is a faith and works based pre-trib rapture.)

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

To "let" means to hinder. Salty Christians who are letting their light shine, and occupying till our Lord comes, are the ones that get taken out of the way before the antichrist is revealed.

Universal pretribbers usually say this is the Holy Spirit being taken from the earth, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Do the 144,000 witnesses not have the Holy Spirit?

I have never heard a mid or post tribber have any explanation for who or what is taken out of the way.

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Enoch walked with God and he pleased God. So he was translated before the flood came. He is a type of the partial pre-trib rapture. Universal pre-tribbers ignore the fact that Enoch wasn't just a believer, but one that pleased God. (Or in typical Calvinist/Arminian fashion (two-sides of the same coin really) they assume that all "real" believers by definition are pleasing and walking with God.) I have never heard the mid/post tribbers have any explanation as to why Enoch was translated.

 

[Dayle]

The partial pre-trib rapture refers to the idea that not all believers are raptured, but only the ones that are watching and waiting for the Lord's return, that are walking with God, seeking the kingdom, etc. Basically, if you are living in good fellowship with God in terms of your practical walk with Christ, you will be accounted worthy to be part of the pre-trib rapture.

Three passages to support this would be:

Luke 21:34-36
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You will only escape all these things (i.e. the tribulation just mentioned earlier in he chapter) if you are accounted worthy.

(And to try to head off the objection before someone makes it: This view does not entail a works based salvation - but it is a faith and works based pre-trib rapture.)

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

To "let" means to hinder. Salty Christians who are letting their light shine, and occupying till our Lord comes, are the ones that get taken out of the way before the antichrist is revealed.

Universal pretribbers usually say this is the Holy Spirit being taken from the earth, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Do the 144,000 witnesses not have the Holy Spirit?

I have never heard a mid or post tribber have any explanation for who or what is taken out of the way.

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Enoch walked with God and he pleased God. So he was translated before the flood came. He is a type of the partial pre-trib rapture. Universal pre-tribbers ignore the fact that Enoch wasn't just a believer, but one that pleased God. (Or in typical Calvinist/Arminian fashion (two-sides of the same coin really) they assume that all "real" believers by definition are pleasing and walking with God.) I have never heard the mid/post tribbers have any explanation as to why Enoch was translated.

Strange , very strange---------
I believe you have been lead astray.

If what you say is true, there will be so few taken that no one will notice.

 

[TurnTheTide1611]

Strange , very strange---------
I believe you have been lead astray.

If what you say is true, there will be so few taken that no one will notice.

Well, hopefully you or someone else can explain the scriptures provided, so if I am astray I can get back on the right path.

And yes there probably will be relatively few taken in the pre-trib rapture, regardless of the planes crashing and absolute pandemonium as portrayed in universal pre-trib books and movies. But there might be more taken than we think:

1 Kings 19:14,18 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away... 18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.