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Featured Help me understand calvinism.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Gorship, Mar 31, 2019.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is said to be the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    Creation could not have happened unless Jesus was in place as mediator and Surety of the elect.
    Again God is never surprised or unprepared. Without the mediator in place with the Covenant redemption in view, mankind might have been destroyed except for the
    covenant made by the Godhead.
    Adam sinned and all In Him sinned and died spiritually at that time. Romans5 says it clearly.
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
     
  2. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    So like can we take that as B?

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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I would say C as you posted this wording;
    Paragraph 4. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in His providence, that His determinate counsel extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men;11 and that not by a bare permission, which also He most wisely and powerfully binds, and otherwise orders and governs,12 in a manifold dispensation to His most holy ends;13 yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceeds only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.14"

    keep in mind the wording used for the design of the Cross;
    23 Him,
    being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
     
  4. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    OK so you are indeed a compatabilist.

    God could have decreed all men come to Him most freely. However He didn't.

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  5. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    For the record, I believe this to be the case. Those that are not saved are under the wrath of God.
     
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  6. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    As an arminian I don't disagree that those who are not saved are under wrath.

    The question for me is timing.

    It appears to me that in Calvinism. Before the foundations. Through no act for foresight, God selected His elect.

    He COULD have elected everyone. However he didn't.

    We are under His wrath, when God COULD have determined us all to freely worship and love Him.

    So prior to wrath even being hung over one's head, God didn't love some people. Those people are just fodder.

    It's just the only way I see that line of thinking playing out.

    Never mind that I do think the deck was stacked from the beginning.

    If determinism/compatabilistic freedom is true, it's all rigged lol. God set this whole facade up, for man to fall into sin, then drown all but a few. Let them climb back to population. The strut in as the hero and die, not for all. No no. Just for the elect.

    Why? Just to demostrate His power. Like a kid with a magnifying glass playing duck duck goose.



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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No...I do not believe that at all
    I do not use these modern philosophical terms.
    No...God is saving all he ever intended to save, not one more, not one less.
    here again from the confession1689;
    4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
    ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
     
  8. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    You dont use modern philosophical jargon but you use the London Confession?

    Cmon man haha.

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  9. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Ok

    Yes

    Ok

    I guess so... Not sure why that is a sticking point for you.
     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Gorship,

    No..not possible. There is no could have...there is only His perfect purpose.
     
  11. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    Well my two new favorite calvys, two different answers.

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  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The numbers at the bottom of the confession are ..SCRIPTURE VERSES...not philosophy
     
  13. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I actually disagree. If it had been His will, he could have, but it was not His will.
     
  14. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    I mean philosophy doesnt have verses. But anyway. Arminians / non cals do have scriptures for their views too.

    Quick q. Are non calvys saved?

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  15. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Actually we are giving two forms of the same answer. If it had been His will, he could have, but it would not His will so in that sense he could not have.
     
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No they don't. ;)

    Depends.
     
  17. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    Alright fine. I can concede that to semantics (semantics is the word I want I think)

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  18. Gorship

    Gorship Active Member

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    Intrigued I am.

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  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Don't do that...he is just trying to understand your motivation...There is no change possible in God's
    plan.It is fixed and certain, so much so that at the Incarnation the Zacharias announced it as if it were already finished;
    67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

    68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

    69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

    70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

    71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

    74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

    75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

    76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

    77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

    78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

    79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

    80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.
     
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    There is only one way to be saved. You said non calvinists, that is a WHOLE LOT of people. Are atheists saved? No. Are Arminians saved? Sure if they have faith in Christ.
     
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