The ideal local church, what is it?

[1689Dave]

Because you are a-millennial you miss the time of cessation by about 1000 years.

The gift of learning and speaking in earthy languages and to be able to bring the desires of the heart to the presence of God as the Holy Spirit expresses such in heavenly language and we mutter will only cease at the time there will be no mysteries, no unknown,

As one who is premillennial such happens at the point of the millennial reign.

Please do not consider the charismatic gibberish is of God, but there are still modern accounts of God miraculously transforming the language so both the speaker and listeners hear and are understood. Preachers, teachers, evangelists, believers still present the Word to a people that need to hear but stop their ears.

More often in disgust over fakery, the person’s reaction is hostile and disregarding. The same is true with unfamiliarity. What one doesn’t know more often frightens and defensiveness takes over heard in the words, “I don’t like ...”

My ideal church has never existed. Even in the earliest formation the early church had both weeds and wheat. But isn’t that what my Savior loved and died for. So, my ideal church is found in the final chapters of the revelation. That wonderful place prepared for me in which there is no temple, no sun, for the whole is illuminated by the Son as we continually dwell in His presence.

But, tongues came only through an apostle's hands or the two outpourings. So it cannot be as you say.

 

[1689Dave]

The understanding comes from the interpretation. Read I Cor.
Ch 14 is plain that a person speaking in tongues May or may not have understanding.

But Paul said the tongues speaker edified themselves and understanding what is said is what edifies. This means nobody speaks in biblical tongues today because nobody knows what they are saying. They could be cussing God out at an emotional level and not know it. Voodoo practitioners speak in tongues the same way. Speaking in Tongues: Glossalalia and Stress Reduction

 

[37818]

But, tongues came only through an apostle's hands or the two outpourings.

Some specific cases given in the NT. But that does not negate what the word of God instructed on the matter, ". . . to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: [ But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will. . . ."

Now I hold that has since ceased (1 Corinthians 13:8-10).

 

[1689Dave]

Some specific cases given in the NT. But that does not negate what the word of God instructed on the matter, ". . . to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: [ But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will. . . ."

Now I hold that has since ceased (1 Corinthians 13:8-10).

But the Spirit worked through the apostles only or through the two outpourings.

“And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” (Acts 8:18)

“For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established;” (Romans 1:11)

“Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.” (2 Timothy 1:6)

 

[37818]

But the Spirit worked through the apostles only or through the two outpourings.

“And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” (Acts 8:18)

“For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established;” (Romans 1:11)

“Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.” (2 Timothy 1:6)

Does not change the teachngs in 1 Corinthians 12. 1 Corinthians 13:8-12. 1 Corinthians 1:14.

 

[1689Dave]

Does not change the teachngs in 1 Corinthians 12. 1 Corinthians 13:8-12. 1 Corinthians 1:14.

You cannot isolate them from the constraints imposed by the apostle's hands.

 

[agedman]

You cannot isolate them from the constraints imposed by the apostle's hands.

It is hard pressed to limit the languages to two occasions when Paul states he has greater ability in the matter then any one.

There are those who are gifted in languages. Tyndale, Wyclif, and others who were and are fluent in multiple tongues. Even in this day, there are some who struggle to just scrap a pass, and a few who thrive. Though now such is developed under teachers, but the gift is first endowed by God who gives all good gifts.

Such is as all matters, in which God endows ability, math, music, mechanical, teaching, preaching, ...

Who laid hands upon the believers both at Pentecost and in the presence of Gentiles? Not the apostles, but the work of the Holy Spirit.

Strictly speaking it was the laying on of hands in which the Holy Spirit was dispensed, not the ability to speak in languages.

Is the Holy Spirit given by the laying on of hands or at the pleasure of the God of all creation?

 

[37818]

You cannot isolate them from the constraints imposed by the apostle's hands.

Were does the word of God limit 1 Corinthians 12 the giving of gifts of the Spirit to the Apostle's hands? It does not. You on the other hand are limiting the Spirit of God who decides, how are you not? The fact gifts of the Spirit and even salvation, that is, the receiving of the Spirit, has been given with the Apostles hands, now where does this limit either to the Apostle's hands?

 

[1689Dave]

Were does the word of God limit 1 Corinthians 12 the giving of gifts of the Spirit to the Apostle's hands? It does not. You on the other hand are limiting the Spirit of God who decides, how are you not? The fact gifts of the Spirit and even salvation, that is, the receiving of the Spirit, has been given with the Apostles hands, now where does this limit either to the Apostle's hands?

If Paul wanted to come to Rome to impart spiritual gifts, why didn't the Romans already have them through prayer?

 

[37818]

If Paul wanted to come to Rome to impart spiritual gifts, why didn't the Romans already have them through prayer?

Again it is, ". . . Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 12:11.

 

[1689Dave]

Again it is, ". . . Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 12:11.

If independently of the apostle's, why Paul's trip to Rome to impart spiritual gifts????

 

[agedman]

If independently of the apostle's, why Paul's trip to Rome to impart spiritual gifts????

If I recall, there are three times Paul mentions a desire to go to Rome. The desire was to strengthen and encourage them.

He mentions that there was no more opportunity in the area he had been in and he was leaving, going to Jerusalem, and then on to Rome.

He did not mention gift, but gifts. What gifts are not specified and it could very well be the impartation was any instruction in righteousness Paul might add. As it was, he did go, and did leave, and in between he left a stronger assembly, because he daily met folks.

Paul (after his release) traveled again on a fourth journey (but little is known of length or where - maybe to what is now England) and was again arrested. 2 Timothy shows the attitude and affairs of Paul days before he was beheaded.

 

[1689Dave]

If I recall, there are three times Paul mentions a desire to go to Rome. The desire was to strengthen and encourage them.

He mentions that there was no more opportunity in the area he had been in and he was leaving, going to Jerusalem, and then on to Rome.

He did not mention gift, but gifts. What gifts are not specified and it could very well be the impartation was any instruction in righteousness Paul might add. As it was, he did go, and did leave, and in between he left a stronger assembly, because he daily met folks.

Paul (after his release) traveled again on a fourth journey (but little is known of length or where - maybe to what is now England) and was again arrested. 2 Timothy shows the attitude and affairs of Paul days before he was beheaded.

“For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established;” (Romans 1:11) Why so, if prayer would do the job?

 

[agedman]

“For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established;” (Romans 1:11) Why so, if prayer would do the job?

Because there was no NT, the church relied upon instructions from the leadership. Not just apostles and disciples but deacons, evangelists (such as Apollos), missionaries (such as John Mark) ...

Paul, wanted “in on the action,” more likely because he hadn’t started the assembly. And he considered he could do good helping to “root and ground” (an agricultural and construction term) the assembly, which he did as many of even Caesar's “household” were reached and taught.

Specifically about prayer, perhaps this was an area of needed instruction. He certainly had to tell other churches how to arrange their affairs and actions. How much more in the Roman seat of highest idol worship and debauchery.

Besides, does prayer do the job, in this modern time?

Or is the first impulse typically self reliance, self protection, self preservation.

No doubt some of the instruction by Paul to this living relatively peaceful assembly was, “Learn to pray, rely upon God, experience fellowship with Him. For there is coming a time of great persecution in which most will be slain by torture and violence.”

Just as here in the relative peace of the US, there is coming a time of great violence to the local believers. Not in isolation as it happens, but focus concentrated government sanctioned violence. Wise ministers of the gospel will warn, build the flock, teach them all things - even how to pray, and prepare their hearts and minds to turn to God rather than being afraid.

I would imagine Paul had much to teach. How and what to pray being part of that, too.

 

[agedman]

Here is a first hand first century account of how God worked among believers who had no formal NT.

It is offered solely for education, not for emulation. Some of it we in our enlightened minds would consider foolish even perhaps not according to the Bible.

Yet, one must remember the OT was the Word from which the early assemblies drew, there was no NT. The experiences very well fit the OT work of God.

https://danutm.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/st-perpetuas-diary.pdf

 

[1689Dave]

Because there was no NT, the church relied upon instructions from the leadership. Not just apostles and disciples but deacons, evangelists (such as Apollos), missionaries (such as John Mark) ...

Paul, wanted “in on the action,” more likely because he hadn’t started the assembly. And he considered he could do good helping to “root and ground” (an agricultural and construction term) the assembly, which he did as many of even Caesar's “household” were reached and taught.

Specifically about prayer, perhaps this was an area of needed instruction. He certainly had to tell other churches how to arrange their affairs and actions. How much more in the Roman seat of highest idol worship and debauchery.

Besides, does prayer do the job, in this modern time?

Or is the first impulse typically self reliance, self protection, self preservation.

No doubt some of the instruction by Paul to this living relatively peaceful assembly was, “Learn to pray, rely upon God, experience fellowship with Him. For there is coming a time of great persecution in which most will be slain by torture and violence.”

Just as here in the relative peace of the US, there is coming a time of great violence to the local believers. Not in isolation as it happens, but focus concentrated government sanctioned violence. Wise ministers of the gospel will warn, build the flock, teach them all things - even how to pray, and prepare their hearts and minds to turn to God rather than being afraid.

I would imagine Paul had much to teach. How and what to pray being part of that, too.

It still says that Paul needed to visit them personally in order for them to have the spiritual gifts. Prayer obviously would not provide that.

 

[agedman]

It still says that Paul needed to visit them personally in order for them to have the spiritual gifts. Prayer obviously would not provide that.

No, it says he desired to impart some spiritual gift. When he got their he would discern the need and give instruction. God gave about three years before Paul could leave to spread the gospel further west into Europe. History thinks he made what is now Spain, France, England / Ireland when he was arrested and returned to Rome.

Without the Holy Spirit their is no true faith. The Rome assembly already had true faith or Paul would not have written he desired to come to impart “some” gift of the Holy Spirit, He would more certainly said that he would impart the Holy Spirit.

 

[1689Dave]

No, it says he desired to impart some spiritual gift. When he got their he would discern the need and give instruction. God gave about three years before Paul could leave to spread the gospel further west into Europe. History thinks he made what is now Spain, France, England / Ireland when he was arrested and returned to Rome.

Without the Holy Spirit their is no true faith. The Rome assembly already had true faith or Paul would not have written he desired to come to impart “some” gift of the Holy Spirit, He would more certainly said that he would impart the Holy Spirit.

Just take it for what it says.

 

[agedman]

Just take it for what it says.

What? Paul’s statement?

Of course I have. Taking it with the fullness and limits in comparison to all his teaching we are given to know.

That you might disagree does not warrant me to agree to any limit of the ability as a gift of God for some to excel in that skill even in this day.

The skill is the gift, how it is used (just as Paul instructed one or two prophesy (preach the truths) at a gathering, there is a learning process. A limit to how the gift is used. I don’t preach in a language the assembled do not know, but remain silent unless there is an interpreter.

If God granted me the ability to be multi lingual, I wouldn’t need the interpreter. That I may have the ability to be multi lingual is the gift, not the speaking. The development of the gift may change, but the gift remains.

Perhaps you assume that nothing supernatural occurs as it did at Both the Jewish and Gentile anointing that you find satisfactory for limiting.

The Corinthians had no such record of an anointing, yet clearly had such gift, or Paul wouldn’t have even brought up the subject. He spent the balance of the chapter prioritizing.

And he stated that hope, faith, Love will remain, and do remain even in that final dwelling place. But when Christ has returned for the millennial reign (which you don’t think will take place despite OT Prophecy shown valid in the Revelation) there is no need of such as prophecy (preaching salvation and reconciliation) there is no need of healings, no need os language skills, and we will know as He knows.

Even in this day we do not see clearly all the Word declares, but must discern passages, resolve mysteries, seek wisdom and teaching of the Holy Spirit.

But not during and after the millennial reign.

A-millennial Baptist scorched the thinking gifts of God such as is in this thread ceased. Because their eschatology demanded it.

Yet, the actual reading renders a far different view.

I take Paul’s view over the demands of eschatology conformity.

 

[1689Dave]

What? Paul’s statement?

Of course I have. Taking it with the fullness and limits in comparison to all his teaching we are given to know.

That you might disagree does not warrant me to agree to any limit of the ability as a gift of God for some to excel in that skill even in this day.

The skill is the gift, how it is used (just as Paul instructed one or two prophesy (preach the truths) at a gathering, there is a learning process. A limit to how the gift is used. I don’t preach in a language the assembled do not know, but remain silent unless there is an interpreter.

If God granted me the ability to be multi lingual, I wouldn’t need the interpreter. That I may have the ability to be multi lingual is the gift, not the speaking. The development of the gift may change, but the gift remains.

Perhaps you assume that nothing supernatural occurs as it did at Both the Jewish and Gentile anointing that you find satisfactory for limiting.

The Corinthians had no such record of an anointing, yet clearly had such gift, or Paul wouldn’t have even brought up the subject. He spent the balance of the chapter prioritizing.

And he stated that hope, faith, Love will remain, and do remain even in that final dwelling place. But when Christ has returned for the millennial reign (which you don’t think will take place despite OT Prophecy shown valid in the Revelation) there is no need of such as prophecy (preaching salvation and reconciliation) there is no need of healings, no need os language skills, and we will know as He knows.

Even in this day we do not see clearly all the Word declares, but must discern passages, resolve mysteries, seek wisdom and teaching of the Holy Spirit.

But not during and after the millennial reign.

A-millennial Baptist scorched the thinking gifts of God such as is in this thread ceased. Because their eschatology demanded it.

Yet, the actual reading renders a far different view.

I take Paul’s view over the demands of eschatology conformity.

We are not even close to being on the same page. Let's save band width and give it a rest.