Ask in Sunday School

Is the Bible accurate and trustworthy when it says that the sons of Eli hearkened not to the voice of their father, because the Lord would slay them? 1 Samuel 2:25

 

Yes. All that verse says is that God, due to their impenitence had already decided to judge them for their sin. They experienced a judicial hardening of their hearts, much the way Pharaoh did. That led to their final judgment at the hand of the Lord.

 

Is God surprised by such sins?

In your "view" God somehow knows these sins are going to happen,but He does not prevent them ?

So you say these events which occur, were not ordained to come to pass...and yet somehow do come to pass???

Can you give other examples of things that come to pass, that were not ordained to come to pass?

God does not ordain for there to exist purposeless evil, random sinful events beyond His control.

In Amos 3:6b we read shall there be evil in a city,and the Lord hath not done it?

Was Amos mistaken?

 

Is the Bible accurate and trustworthy when it says God turned the heart of the Egyptians to hate his people? Psalm 105:25

 

Is the Bible accurate and trustworthy when it says God hardened spirit of Sihon king of Hesbon, and made his heart obstinate? Deuteronomy 2:30

 

Is the Bible accurate and trustworthy when it says God turned the heart of the king of Assyria to favor the people of Israel? Ezra 6:22

 

No, because He is omniscient.

Yes, He knows they will happen, but does not prevent them.

Why would God ordain us to sin on the one hand and then command us NOT to sin. Why would God do that? That would self-defeating. The Bible says in Eph. 1, that we are predestined to be blameless before Him in love. I also says that we are predestined to be to the praise of His glory. So why would God ordain us to live in a manner that undermines what He has predestined us to be???

The sin of Adam, every murder, every robbery, every act of adultery, every time someone takes the Lord's Name in vain, every act of dishonor towards one's parents, every act of sexual immorality, every act of covetousness, every kind of abuse, every act of bearing false witness, idolatry, witchcraft, necromancy, suicide, spousal abuse.... Do you need more?

Nothing is outside of His control. There is a limit to everything. The fact that does not ordain every action does not mean that what is not ordained is outside of His control.

 

The fact that sin and evil happen. Means they were ordained to come to pass.
The fact that sin is ordained to come to pass, does not make God the cause of the sin.
In the time you have taken to read and create these posts you could have read the 13 page link I offered. You declined, so you are left going in philosophical circles. Read the link, then we can talk.

 

#4

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

No it doesn't mean they were ordained. You assume that every action is ordained by God, but the Bible does not say that. And so far you have not quoted ONE Scripture that proves every act is ordained by God.

it doesn't make Him the author of sin, but if He ordained a sin to occur, He appointed that sin to happen. In fact, your argument is self-defeating. According to you, God decrees a sin to occur, but that doesn't make him responsible for it occurring. That is a ridiculous, self-defeating argument that no intelligent, thinking person can accept.

I don't read online novels, and if you are too lazy to make the argument yourself, then it only shows the weakness of your position. I can reason out my own line of argumentation, I don't hide behind links and articles or rely on others to do my thinking for me.

 

I believe in the God Who revealed His name to Moses and is known in Jesus, not a generic or nationalistic god.

I have no right to tell God how to manage His creation.

Nothing goes outside the bounds of God's permissive will, yet I know that God allows much of His created order to be fallen in order that rebellious humankind would not be destroyed by it. However, there is coming a day when He will complete the process of setting everything right again and the part of humankind who is confirmed in righteousness through discipleship to Jesus Christ will exercise righteous free will that is perfectly in line with God's will.

God is active and working in my life, more than I usually recognize, but God does not "control" me in the sense of overriding my free will. It is not because of some innate power in me that prevents it, but that God has allowed my choices and actions to have consequences, both temporal and eternal. There are occasions where I react righteously without thinking, but that is because I have previously exercised my will to yield to God. God also empowers righteousness through His grace, through spiritual gifts and the work of the Holy Spirit, to accomplish more than I could ever do on my own.

 

I have not been considering my position. I have been addressing what Icon has, himself stated. So far, the majority of his responses center around things that are not in dispute. I am well aware his views and the fact that they are internally inconsistent and not rooted in Scripture.

I am happy to read his argument and then refute what he presents. I know my own views well enough that I don't need someone else to restate them for me.

 

I'm not completely sure I understand your question.

Even if I am disobedient to God's will, I am still under His authority and invite discipline upon myself. Sometimes that discipline is simply letting the consequences of my rebellion unfold (the prodigal) until I come to repentance, and other times God takes specific actions (as will Jonah) to get me on the correct path. An interesting theme in Jonah is that we don't get to see him repent of his attitude toward Ninevah in his heart -- he still holds them in contempt -- but the question is put upon the reader as to whether or not God was right in sparing Ninevah (Jonah 4:11).

The authority doesn't change. At the same time, we can know whether or not we have ever been under His authority by the fact that He disciplines us when we rebel (Hebrews 12:6-11).

 

The problem with the link and Icon's view is that the Bible doesn't say that God ordains sin to occur. I am not talking about the problem of evil, which is what that link is addressing. I am not addressing whether or not God ordains evil to exist.

I am talking about whether or not God ordains particular sinful acts to occur like rape, child molestation, drunk driving, etc. Does God ordain that a man will go out and rape a woman? Icon said that NOTHING happens unless God ordains it. My point is that such an argument isn't very well thought out because it means that God ordains human beings to commit sin.

 

You have got it exactly correct agedman.

 

I am glad you found the link useful. I did for sure
I am not that smart. I am smart enough to learn from gifted teachers though.
I type slow, so a link says what I know and believe,
Much faster.