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GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
Yes. All that verse says is that God, due to their impenitence had already decided to judge them for their sin. They experienced a judicial hardening of their hearts, much the way Pharaoh did. That led to their final judgment at the hand of the Lord.
Is God surprised by such sins?
In your "view" God somehow knows these sins are going to happen,but He does not prevent them ?
So you say these events which occur, were not ordained to come to pass...and yet somehow do come to pass???
Can you give other examples of things that come to pass, that were not ordained to come to pass?
God does not ordain for there to exist purposeless evil, random sinful events beyond His control.
In Amos 3:6b we read shall there be evil in a city,and the Lord hath not done it?
Was Amos mistaken?
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GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
No, because He is omniscient.
Yes, He knows they will happen, but does not prevent them.
Why would God ordain us to sin on the one hand and then command us NOT to sin. Why would God do that? That would self-defeating. The Bible says in Eph. 1, that we are predestined to be blameless before Him in love. I also says that we are predestined to be to the praise of His glory. So why would God ordain us to live in a manner that undermines what He has predestined us to be???
The sin of Adam, every murder, every robbery, every act of adultery, every time someone takes the Lord's Name in vain, every act of dishonor towards one's parents, every act of sexual immorality, every act of covetousness, every kind of abuse, every act of bearing false witness, idolatry, witchcraft, necromancy, suicide, spousal abuse.... Do you need more?
Nothing is outside of His control. There is a limit to everything. The fact that does not ordain every action does not mean that what is not ordained is outside of His control.
The fact that sin and evil happen. Means they were ordained to come to pass.
The fact that sin is ordained to come to pass, does not make God the cause of the sin.
In the time you have taken to read and create these posts you could have read the 13 page link I offered. You declined, so you are left going in philosophical circles. Read the link, then we can talk.
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
No it doesn't mean they were ordained. You assume that every action is ordained by God, but the Bible does not say that. And so far you have not quoted ONE Scripture that proves every act is ordained by God.
it doesn't make Him the author of sin, but if He ordained a sin to occur, He appointed that sin to happen. In fact, your argument is self-defeating. According to you, God decrees a sin to occur, but that doesn't make him responsible for it occurring. That is a ridiculous, self-defeating argument that no intelligent, thinking person can accept.
I don't read online novels, and if you are too lazy to make the argument yourself, then it only shows the weakness of your position. I can reason out my own line of argumentation, I don't hide behind links and articles or rely on others to do my thinking for me.
I believe in the God Who revealed His name to Moses and is known in Jesus, not a generic or nationalistic god.
I have no right to tell God how to manage His creation.
Nothing goes outside the bounds of God's permissive will, yet I know that God allows much of His created order to be fallen in order that rebellious humankind would not be destroyed by it. However, there is coming a day when He will complete the process of setting everything right again and the part of humankind who is confirmed in righteousness through discipleship to Jesus Christ will exercise righteous free will that is perfectly in line with God's will.
God is active and working in my life, more than I usually recognize, but God does not "control" me in the sense of overriding my free will. It is not because of some innate power in me that prevents it, but that God has allowed my choices and actions to have consequences, both temporal and eternal. There are occasions where I react righteously without thinking, but that is because I have previously exercised my will to yield to God. God also empowers righteousness through His grace, through spiritual gifts and the work of the Holy Spirit, to accomplish more than I could ever do on my own.
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It is not enough for a believer to consider their own position or view of a matter the correct view, but must also be very aware of other views and how to refute them.
For example, in the link is this statement in part:
“God ordains sin, but he does not command it. Sin exists as part of the Divine teleological purpose, but it is not forced upon men by necessity. Men cannot make God culpable for their own sin and breach of God’s preceptive will. They must, as moral, rational, responsible beings, bear the consequences of their own transgressions.”
You may disagree with that statement. It is lifted out of the context of the whole. However, if your were at least casually aware and understanding of the whole, then specific argument can be made, where otherwise folks talk past each other often making unsupported accusations.
The believer is to be rooted (an agricultural term) and grounded (an architectural term). That is, they are to be able to survey the landscape, and build upon it that which is best and correct. If one is only familiar with the desert of frozen water and the architecture of igloos they have little success in the dry desert of sand.
If only to bring clarity of how to oppose a view, the information in the link (http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf) provided is well worth the read.
Granted, I speed read, but even slower reading (required for deeper comprehension) takes but a few minutes. It is primarily Scriptures that are familiar.
Then, it might be suggested that a thread be started citing this specific work, that discussion of the validity and weakness be brought for edification of all the BB folks.
By sharing the information and presenting another view in which you disagree and provide substantial scripture refutation is really helpful to the BB folks.
Interesting
Just to clarify, how you view submission yet choice.
If I, as a believer am disobedient in following the instructions and will of the master, is that removing the master as my authority and therefore freeing myself from the authority of the master, as was the case of the prodigal son, or does the master by ordaining the consequences of evil remain my master as in the example of Jonah?
Granted, one could argue that they both suffered consequences, but my question is more about the direct authority of the master.
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
I have not been considering my position. I have been addressing what Icon has, himself stated. So far, the majority of his responses center around things that are not in dispute. I am well aware his views and the fact that they are internally inconsistent and not rooted in Scripture.
I am happy to read his argument and then refute what he presents. I know my own views well enough that I don't need someone else to restate them for me.
I'm not completely sure I understand your question.
Even if I am disobedient to God's will, I am still under His authority and invite discipline upon myself. Sometimes that discipline is simply letting the consequences of my rebellion unfold (the prodigal) until I come to repentance, and other times God takes specific actions (as will Jonah) to get me on the correct path. An interesting theme in Jonah is that we don't get to see him repent of his attitude toward Ninevah in his heart -- he still holds them in contempt -- but the question is put upon the reader as to whether or not God was right in sparing Ninevah (Jonah 4:11).
The authority doesn't change. At the same time, we can know whether or not we have ever been under His authority by the fact that He disciplines us when we rebel (Hebrews 12:6-11).
Not certain I agree with your assessment of icon’s view.
For example you stated:
But if God ordains something to happen, if nothing happens that God does not ordain (appoint, decree), then God is the direct cause of any act, sinful or not, since it was His will to ordain it to happen. You cannot escape that unassailable logic.
Are you in disagreement that icon can consider God ordaining evil, yet not culpable for the actions of evil?
Icon is following the line of thinking found in the link which in part states:
Although God wills evil, it must not be imagined that he wills it in the same sense and manner that he wills what is righteous, holy and good. He ordains evil to exist and controls it, overruling it to the highest good and his glory (Psa. 145:17; Rom. 11:33–36; Rev. 4:11). He does not take pleasure in evil in a positive sense. Thus, it may be right for God to ordain what is not right for man to do and therefore wrong for God to command man to do under his preceptive will. The Dutch Theologian Herman Bavinck seeks to explain this truth by an illustration:
Because man is a rational, moral being, God does not treat him as if he were a stone or a log but deals with him and addresses him in accordance with his nature. Just as a father forbids his child to touch a sharp knife though he himself uses it without injury or damage, so God forbids us to sin though He himself is able to use and does use sin as a means of self–glorification. (Note: copied from http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf)
Now, I could have written that, but by pointing to it as a link and a reader actually finding and reading the quote in context is far better.
So, when one looks at the contextual basis (as found in a link provided to support the view) it is good to look beyond the dialogue of a post and gather information of the broader source to formulate more specific refutations.
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
The problem with the link and Icon's view is that the Bible doesn't say that God ordains sin to occur. I am not talking about the problem of evil, which is what that link is addressing. I am not addressing whether or not God ordains evil to exist.
I am talking about whether or not God ordains particular sinful acts to occur like rape, child molestation, drunk driving, etc. Does God ordain that a man will go out and rape a woman? Icon said that NOTHING happens unless God ordains it. My point is that such an argument isn't very well thought out because it means that God ordains human beings to commit sin.
You have got it exactly correct agedman.
I am glad you found the link useful. I did for sure
I am not that smart. I am smart enough to learn from gifted teachers though.
I type slow, so a link says what I know and believe,
Much faster.
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