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"For God SO LOVES the HUMAN RACE..."

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Acts2.21, Jun 17, 2019.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. I hold the view that the propitiation serves one of two purposes. To condemn or redeem, Romans 8:34. In the one common purpose of Christ being Lord of all, Romans 14:9-11.
     
    #141 37818, Jun 28, 2019
  2. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2, perhaps. But that’s not the discussion we were having, is it. We were discussing John 21:25, so the introduction of John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2 is nothing more than a red herring.

    The Archangel


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    #142 The Archangel, Jun 28, 2019
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    For a $19.95 love offering you can be on mine as well. For a $59.95 love offering I'll send you a prayer Kleenex. :)
     
    #143 JonC, Jun 28, 2019
  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    But, if the atonement is for all sin, and for all people, all will be saved. But we know this is not the case. So your version of the atonement doesn't pay for sin at all. Pelagius needs to move over and make more room for those trying to sleep with him.
     
    #144 1689Dave, Jun 28, 2019
  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Whole world according to your understanding = Christ did not pay for any sin. If so all would be saved.
     
    #145 1689Dave, Jun 28, 2019
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. "Whole world" means, as Calvin put it, "the whole world without exception". And this means ALL sin.

    When we look at others who believed this (like Calvin and Augustine) we can recognize through their theologies that they also rejected universal salvation while affirming Christ as the propitiation for ALL sin.

    So your argument should not be related to the view but to your understanding (or lack of understanding) of the view (Calvinism as a whole).

    If you want we can start a discussion - not to change your view but to get you past this barrier (hopefully) in understanding the other. I had hoped we would be there by now.
     
    #146 JonC, Jun 28, 2019
  7. Mr. Davis

    Mr. Davis Active Member
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    Please flesh-out further what you mean.
    TULIP: requires that all of its components rise or fall -together-. Do you agree with that premise?
     
    #147 Mr. Davis, Jun 28, 2019
  8. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Calvin was a universalist and turned the gospel into law. And grace into works people would accomplish by grace. His offshoots at Dordt set things straight at least in acknowledging the Atonement actually secured salvation for those intended.
     
    #148 1689Dave, Jun 28, 2019
  9. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    No, the first 3 points are near perfect as can be. Point 4 turns the gospel into law and grace into works people perform by grace. Point 5 is sketchy but could use some refinement.
     
    #149 1689Dave, Jun 28, 2019
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Prove Calvin was a universalist (it sounds as if you are redefining peoples views so that you can assign to them a conclusion of your choice.

    The fact, however, is many believe Christ us the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (without exception), and only those who bekueve are saved.

    The difference is these fo not view the cross as a business transaction. Instead the Cross is Christ redeeming the human race. Those who do not believe remain in their sins, but Christ is Judge because He is the Propitiation for the sins of man.
     
    #150 JonC, Jun 28, 2019
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Simply not true.
     
    #151 37818, Jun 28, 2019
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  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The problem is that he cannot deal with the view in its own context. He takes your view and applies to it his philosophy and arrives at a false conclusion.

    This is the most common issue on this forum (in all camps). What most often separates people are not really the conclusions but how we get there. One cannot understand the other's reasoning.
     
    #152 JonC, Jun 28, 2019
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  13. Mr. Davis

    Mr. Davis Active Member
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    Is the atonement as you understand it limited (particular redemption) or unlimited (universal)?
    Doesn't particular redemption require "irresistible grace" to accomplish its end?
     
    #153 Mr. Davis, Jun 28, 2019
  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The atonement is limited to the elect. Irresistible grace is a result of turning the gospel into law and grace into works that the elect perform by grace. The truth is that Christ justifies the elect by his blood and based on this, God regenerates them giving a new holy nature that lives accordingly. Upon hearing the gospel they naturally believe and follow Christ.
     
    #154 1689Dave, Jun 28, 2019
  15. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Then you are implying the atonement has nothing to do with sin.
     
    #155 1689Dave, Jun 28, 2019
  16. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Calvin was a universalist who turned the gospel into law and grace into works. Later Calvinists corrected this notion.
     
    #156 1689Dave, Jun 28, 2019
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Interesting idea. It is, of course, false as evidenced by Calvin's writings on election and Hell, but it is interesting nonetheless (mostly because it demonstrates how one recreates history to support one's notions in "black & white").
     
    #157 JonC, Jun 28, 2019
  18. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    You should at least google this before drawing too many conclusions. Why Calvin is More Biblical Than Some Calvinists
     
    #158 1689Dave, Jun 28, 2019
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I have been asked and have answered that question many times over the years. Do you have any original with you questions?
    Now here is another question for you. If God instilled our faith as Calvinism falsely claims, God would not need to credit it as righteousness. Therefore the "gift of faith" via irresistible grace is as bogus as a three dollar bill.
     
    #159 Van, Jun 28, 2019
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I don't have to google it. I have read his Institutions. It is always best to read source materials instead of propaganda.

    In Institutions Book 2 Calvin speaks of the church as God's people and Christians as heris of God rather than non-Christians who are "heirs of Hell".

    Book 2, the reprobate (those who do not believe) face righteous destruction.

    Book 3 deals with the eternal punishment of the reprobate (compare to the correction of the believer).

    Please provide a reference of Calvin affirming universal salvation. Is there a document you have in mind by Calvin renouncing his writings denying universalism?
     
    #160 JonC, Jun 28, 2019
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