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Who Is Drawn by the Father?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed1689, Jul 2, 2019.

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  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Actually David you don't know anything about me. I read the Bible everyday. I read it completely through at least twice every year. When Someone quotes a verse making claims that do not seem right to me. I may read the whole chapter several times just to make sure I didn't miss anything. So your attempt to belittle me is nothing but bull. The word all isn't used to mean any thing other than what it means by it's self. If it meant anything else scripture would name it. Thus the word by it's self is a;ways all inclusive.
    MB
     
    #101 MB, Jul 9, 2019
  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is disputing the meaning of the word all. But you did say that only the two words provide the context. One of those two words is not even in the Greek. So the question is, what does all refer to? The answer is provided earlier in the chapter. The context does not allow for it to be every individual person, but all people groups.
     
    #102 Reformed1689, Jul 9, 2019
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  3. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Again, nobody disputes that. But what is all referring to? That is the context you repeatedly ignore.
     
    #103 Reformed1689, Jul 9, 2019
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  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    We will just have to agree that we disagree
    MB
     
    #104 MB, Jul 9, 2019
  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I'm not ignoring the word's meaning it is you who refuses to accept what the word means. You insist that it means something else other than what it means by it's self. Our conversation is going no where. This is my last reply on it.
    MB
     
    #105 MB, Jul 9, 2019
  6. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I assure you I accept all as all.
    That is a pretty big charge and a false accusation. Please show where I have insisted that all means anything other than all. You won't find it.
     
    #106 Reformed1689, Jul 9, 2019
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  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    And God's word never comes back void. He said he's not willing that any should perish. And therefore, salvation is open to ALL living people.
     
    #107 robycop3, Jul 9, 2019
  8. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You have taken that verse out of context. That verse is talking about all the elect. He is not willing that any of the elect should perish. If God did not will that any perish then none would perish.
     
    #108 Reformed1689, Jul 9, 2019
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  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    There is no indication that only the elect are being spoken of in this verse. "willing" is in the middle voice, and neither all or any are indicative of the elect but man in general. Since, the elect are not specifically mentioned then there is no reason to to assume "elect". Which is what is happening.
     
    #109 Revmitchell, Jul 9, 2019
  10. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Of course you are taking the verse out of context. Read the full passage. Who is it talking about?
     
    #110 Reformed1689, Jul 9, 2019
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  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No no, you disagree with me then explain why you disagree with me instead of your go to answer. Provide some substance.
     
    #111 Revmitchell, Jul 9, 2019
  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Look at verse 8, he is addressing the Beloved. Who are the Beloved? The Believers, the Elect. Then he says the Lord is not willing that any should perish. The immediate context is he is speaking of the Believers, the Elect. Context matters. You can't just take a verse out of context and make it say what you want and be correct.
     
    #112 Reformed1689, Jul 9, 2019
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  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Sigh, he was talking to believers but believers are not the subject. The subject are those who are against God, "scoffers" v.3. The context is the subject, again "scoffers".
     
    #113 Revmitchell, Jul 9, 2019
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    We are going to have to agree to disagree. But I will say this, your view makes a powerless God if you follow it to its logical conclusion. If it is the will of God that nobody perishes, then some perish, then God is not able to accomplish his own will.
     
    #114 Reformed1689, Jul 9, 2019
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  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No it doesn't. You use "will" wrong. It does not mean that something is predetermined. It means that its not what God wants even if He allows it.
     
    #115 Revmitchell, Jul 9, 2019
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting because here is the Greek word definition for that verse:

    to plan on a course of action, intend, plan, will.

    So I think I am using will correctly.
     
    #116 Reformed1689, Jul 9, 2019
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  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    We have been through this with another word. maybe it was someone else however, there are more than one use of that word. One is as you say here and the other is:

    "of willing as an affection, to desire: "

    It doesn't get used the same way in every case its used.
     
    #117 Revmitchell, Jul 9, 2019
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Right but I gave you the specific use in this very specific verse. I looked it up.
     
    #118 Reformed1689, Jul 9, 2019
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  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    So you say. Not sure what your source is but it sounds like a commentary. Either way I don't buy it.
     
    #119 Revmitchell, Jul 9, 2019
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What if it is God's will that none perish, however it is not God's will that none perish without qualification (God does not refrain from creating people He knows will perish, God does not make man without a will, etc.).?

    I ask because it gets me thinking - there are things that it is my will for my son to do, but not without qualification. It is my will that my son obey me, but out of his heart and not out of fear of punishment. It is my will that he go to college, but not just to please me. Things like that.
     
    #120 JonC, Jul 9, 2019
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