Who Is Drawn by the Father?

[Rockson]

Yet that is exactly what Scripture tells us that God did. God created men God knew would perish and they serve God's purpose.

Not sure what you mean Jon by saying the ungodly serve God's purpose. Granted when sinners stand in opposition to him he may bring a judgment and lessons to others for others can spin off of that but why should you say he actually doesn't want them not to make heaven their home to serve a purpose? What would that be?

 

[atpollard]

Not sure what you mean Jon by saying the ungodly serve God's purpose. Granted when sinners stand in opposition to him he may bring a judgment and lessons to others for others can spin off of that but why should you say he actually doesn't want them not to make heaven their home to serve a purpose? What would that be?

What purpose of GOD was served by hardening the heart of Pharaoh?

(It led to MANY Egyptian deaths).

 

[SovereignGrace]

What purpose of GOD was served by hardening the heart of Pharaoh?

(It led to MANY Egyptian deaths).

Plus the Assyrians in Isaiah 10 and 1 Chronicles 5, both sent by God to attack Israel.

 

[JonC]

Not sure what you mean Jon by saying the ungodly serve God's purpose. Granted when sinners stand in opposition to him he may bring a judgment and lessons to others for others can spin off of that but why should you say he actually doesn't want them not to make heaven their home to serve a purpose? What would that be?

I'm referring to Romans 9:22.

I believe that everything (to include the ungodly) will ultimately serve God's purposes.

 

[Reformed1689]

But then again don't we see that Ephesians 1 states we were chosen "In Christ". It does not say we were chosen to be In Christ. I'd suggest big difference.

Note, before the foundation of the world and predestined. This doesn't support your view at all.

 

[Rockson]

What purpose of GOD was served by hardening the heart of Pharaoh?

(It led to MANY Egyptian deaths).

First I think a number of things can be said about the phrase, "hardening his heart" In current days we don't state it like this we say, "What I'm going to do is going to make that person mad." We can even say this without any real intent of wanting to make them that way but we stand our ground about certain positions.

But even considering God wanted to make him mad by the simple statement, "Let my people go!" why would he make him mad or harden his heart.....to carry out the ultimate judgment upon him and and Egyptians which they were already slated to receive. And seeing he and Egypt were going to receive judgement the knowledge of that would spread out throughout the earth which it did that God was alive and was in covenant with Israel. The Red Sea incident did bring God glory as we see in what Rahab said in Jericho that everyone had heard what God had done for them.

But does that mean God couldn't have done things differently if Egypt hadn't cursed themselves because of their oppressive behavior? I'd suggest he could have. Keep in mind God brought glory to himself when he blessed Egypt too in the generations prior. So does God need people to miss heaven from being their home to bring glory to himself. I contend most certainly not.

 

[Rockson]

Note, before the foundation of the world and predestined. This doesn't support your view at all.

Well I'd respectfully contend it does. Let's go to an analogy.

We create a new league for whatever sport and we decide years before creating it just what the criteria will be for one's on it to qualify. Who these individuals are is not the issue. Whoever they'll be (the whoever in scripture) WILL BE ones who have met the conditions. Nope not saved by works but keep in mind a simple receiving of God's grace IS NOT work.

So when Paul is stating WE were chosen in him naturally he's talking about one's who IN HIS REAL TIME are just that....walking in the light and obeying God. So what can he say about himself and the saints, or if I might call it the team....(those who believe in Christ who are actually doing this?) Because they are what they are he's letting them know such ones have been chosen from the foundation of the earth and for this reason that they should be holy and without blame before him in love. What ones who fit the criteria are chosen for is for the end result of being sanctified that is being holy and without blame before him in love.

 

[atpollard]

First I think a number of things can be said about the phrase, "hardening his heart"

I agree, a great number of things CAN be said. I was simply responding to your question about what possible purpose might be served by God not wanting someone to spend eternity in heaven. Since Paul answered that exact question by pointing to God hardening Pharaoh, it seemed a good place to look for an answer to begin by asking what purpose of God was actually saved by an act that we know with certainty that God performed which led to the death of many people and is recorded as being for God’s glory.

From here, we might better speculate on the unknowable motivations of God for some hypothetical sinner landing in Hell.

 

[Reformed1689]

Well I'd respectfully contend it does. Let's go to an analogy.

We create a new league for whatever sport and we decide years before creating it just what the criteria will be for one's on it to qualify. Who these individuals are is not the issue. Whoever they'll be (the whoever in scripture) WILL BE ones who have met the conditions. Nope not saved by works but keep in mind a simple receiving of God's grace IS NOT work.

So when Paul is stating WE were chosen in him naturally he's talking about one's who IN HIS REAL TIME are just that....walking in the light and obeying God. So what can he say about himself and the saints, or if I might call it the team....(those who believe in Christ who are actually doing this?) Because they are what they are he's letting them know such ones have been chosen from the foundation of the earth and for this reason that they should be holy and without blame before him in love. What ones who fit the criteria are chosen for is for the end result of being sanctified that is being holy and without blame before him in love.

Your analogy doesn't work because Paul also writes that God foreknew (not foresaw) those He predestined. Your analogy is not equivalent.

 

[robycop3]

No, not anyone can become elect. They were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Yes, they CAN. Otherwise, why have Bibles, churches & preachers if everyone's "fate" is already decided unalterably before they're born?

 

[Reformed1689]

Yes, they CAN. Otherwise, why have Bibles, churches & preachers if everyone's "fate" is already decided unalterably before they're born?

Because that is how God designed it to pass.

 

[MB]

I know you aren't reading it in context because you declared that those two words were the full context and we have demonstrated time and time again they are not.

Not true! The verse in question is in context and the only way you can deal with it is falsely accusing me. Personally I think it's funny you can't refute it so you accuse me instead.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Not true! The verse in question is in context and the only way you can deal with it is falsely accusing me. Personally I think it's funny you can't refute it so you accuse me instead.
MB

What did I falsely accuse you of? Did you not declare that those two words provided the whole context? I have refuted you on this MANY times. Read the whole passage in context. It is talking about people groups. Jews vs. Gentiles.

 

[MB]

What did I falsely accuse you of? Did you not declare that those two words provided the whole context? I have refuted you on this MANY times. Read the whole passage in context. It is talking about people groups. Jews vs. Gentiles.

\You have never refuted me not even close. You rarely use scripture all you do is deny and make false claims of refuting others. You can't prove that Jn 12: 32 does not say all men are drawn by Christ. You have no scripture that refutes it.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

\You have never refuted me not even close. You rarely use scripture all you do is deny and make false claims of refuting others. You can't prove that Jn 12: 32 does not say all men are drawn by Christ. You have no scripture that refutes it.
MB

Of course I have. The proof is in verses 20-26 which help to provide the context of the passage you choose to ignore. The Greeks came to the disciples and said they wanted to see Jesus. The disciples brought his message to Jesus and tells them (going down to verse 32) that he will draw all men to Himself. Clearly he was letting the disciples know that he would draw not only Jews, but Gentiles as well which would not have been understood as something God would do for the Jews of that day. This would be a foreign idea to them.

So no, it does not say He will draw every individual man. It just says all. It doesn't even say man or people in the original Greek. It just says pas.

 

[MB]

Of course I have. The proof is in verses 20-26 which help to provide the context of the passage you choose to ignore. The Greeks came to the disciples and said they wanted to see Jesus. The disciples brought his message to Jesus and tells them (going down to verse 32) that he will draw all men to Himself. Clearly he was letting the disciples know that he would draw not only Jews, but Gentiles as well which would not have been understood as something God would do for the Jews of that day. This would be a foreign idea to them.

So no, it does not say He will draw every individual man. It just says all. It doesn't even say man or people in the original Greek. It just says pas.

That's really funny David. The Jews and the Gentiles are all the men on planet Earth . You think you have refuted me when you in fact said exactly what I've been saying all along..Unless of course you are presuming that aliens have landed. If you are not Jewish you are a Gentile. You just supported what I have been saying.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

That's really funny David. The Jews and the Gentiles are all the men on planet Earth . You think you have refuted me when you in fact said exactly what I've been saying all along..Unless of course you are presuming that aliens have landed. If you are not Jewish you are a Gentile. You just supported what I have been saying.
MB

But that is people GROUPS not every INDIVIDUAL person. So no, I have not said what you have been saying all along unless you finally agree that it is not every individual person.

 

[Dave G]

Yes, they CAN. Otherwise, why have Bibles, churches & preachers if everyone's "fate" is already decided unalterably before they're born?

** I'd like to state in advance, that I'm "editorializing" in many parts of this**

Roby,
There's only two basic teachings attached to the biblical doctrine of salvation within what is known as "visible Christianity" today:

Man decides his own fate,
Or,
God decides man's fate.

That's what I see this section on "Calvinism" versus "Arminianism" literally filled with, day by day.

Stepping back and taking a long, hard look at the world and its ways, I see that "man deciding his own fate" ( or at least having a hand in it that satisfies some semblance of him having control over things ) is exactly what the average unbeliever loves to think really happens...that their actions somehow determine the outcome of what they do or where they go...both in this life and the next.

I'll tell you what...
Study many forms of man-made philosophy, and I dare say you'll find a common thread.
"Me".

Study many forms of mythology or other man-made religions, and I dare say you'll find something very similar.
"Me, me, me and mine".
"What do I get for doing this?"
"What's in this for me?"
"Why isn't God limited to my box?" <--- Many people seem to think "Calvinists" limit God to their own box, even though, when examined closely, they can provide detailed answers from Scripture as to why God does some things, and admit that the things not revealed in Scripture He does because He wills them, and they are far above their ability to comprehend the reasons why.
"Why can't I approach God the way that I want to?" <---- Read about Nadab and Abihu ( Leviticus 10:1-3 )

I think that the fact that He limits man coming to Him through Christ alone should open up your thinking about how "unreasonable" He is about who He saves and who He doesn't.

Speaking of which:
I could fill pages with examples of different man-made religions that propose this very thing ( "me and my selfish desires" ), because I clearly see that this is what is at the heart of everything those who are not Christians do and focus on...

To me, this is the essence of false religion...what is at its "heart".
The concept that a person can "win the lottery" if he or she can only "pick the right numbers", or "open the combination lock" or "land the big one"...so, in each and every form of this, ( again, I could fill pages with observations about the differing systems of thought, both outside of what is known as "Christianity" and inside it ), there is a common thread:

Man's will taking center stage... with God either being subjected to it, or at least allowing man some part to play.

Getting things like doctrine, beliefs, and performance all within "acceptable parameters", is something I run into almost every day in my travels ( even in Baptist circles, I'm sorry to say )...and it pains me to see that the world's influences, especially its thinking about how salvation works or should work, have taken root and flourished in the churches over the past 200 or more years.


With the above stated, and to answer your quote:

According to the "Calvinist", the reason why we have Bibles as believers, is primarily to serve as our education in the ways of God ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
He has much to share with His children, and plumbing the depths of it can take decades for the believer.
Churches ( gatherings of true believers under one roof, not the "temples" one sees on every street corner ), teachers and preachers are for this reason:

Ephesians 4:11-16.

God has a purpose in everything.
Whether or not we agree with what He does is ultimately of no consequence...we as His children should be grateful that we are His children.

The alternative is to be consigned to outer darkness with the unsaved.

If you believe any of the Scriptures literally, then I have to wonder what is stopping you from believing this:

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.
5 [By] terrible things in righteousness wilt thou answer us, O God of our salvation; [who art] the confidence of all the ends of the earth, and of them that are afar off [upon] the sea:" ( Psalms 65:4-5 )


God bless you, Roby.

 

[Revmitchell]

** I'd like to state in advance, that I'm "editorializing" in many parts of this**

Roby,
There's only two basic teachings attached to the biblical doctrine of salvation within what is known as "visible Christianity" today:

Man decides his own fate,
Or,
God decides man's fate.

That's what I see this section on "Calvinism" versus "Arminianism" literally filled with, day by day.

.

Nope that is not true, but it is true that is how you Augustinians want to characterize it.

 

[Reformed1689]

Nope that is not true, but it is true that is how you Augustinians want to characterize it.

If it isn't true then you guys do a pretty poor job of educating on what you do or do not believe.