Would you support the baptism of a KKK leader if they had no intention of leaving racism behind?

[Baptist Believer]

While this is a hypothetical question at this time, it was a real question in my parent's Baptist church in rural East Texas about a dozen years ago, with one minor change: The pastor wanted to receive the Grand Dragon without baptism by immersion since the man was afraid of water. I don't know how it eventually turned out, because my mother decided to join the nearby Methodist church immediately after that question was announced.

It brings up several questions at once (1) Does one need to repent of obvious sins (as perceived by the congregation and local community) before entering into a church fellowship? (2) When presenting the gospel, should the evangelist bring up the call of discipleship to Jesus that brings obligations in terms of morality, propriety, and service? In other words, how should "counting the cost" and "taking up the cross" be presented? (3) Should baptism be skipped over if the candidate has a fear of water? (4) Should the church simply trust that the Holy Spirit will work everything out in the life of the presumed convert, and receive that person into the fellowship, at potential cost to the reputation of the gospel and the church in the eyes of the larger community? (5) What role does church discipline play?

The reason I ask this question it that wise answers to these questions and the ones you will likely raise will help all of us clarify church polity in terms of persons who want to follow Jesus but appear unconvicted of obvious (at least to us) sin.

Please select every option that applies and give comments and additional insights that explain your reasoning.

 

[Reformed]

While this is a hypothetical question at this time, it was a real question in my parent's Baptist church in rural East Texas about a dozen years ago, with one minor change: The pastor wanted to receive the Grand Dragon without baptism by immersion since the man was afraid of water. I don't know how it eventually turned out, because my mother decided to join the nearby Methodist church immediately after that question was announced.

It brings up several questions at once (1) Does one need to repent of obvious sins (as perceived by the congregation and local community) before entering into a church fellowship? (2) When presenting the gospel, should the evangelist bring up the call of discipleship to Jesus that brings obligations in terms of morality, propriety, and service? In other words, how should "counting the cost" and "taking up the cross" be presented? (3) Should baptism be skipped over if the candidate has a fear of water? (4) Should the church simply trust that the Holy Spirit will work everything out in the life of the presumed convert, and receive that person into the fellowship, at potential cost to the reputation of the gospel and the church in the eyes of the larger community? (5) What role does church discipline play?

The reason I ask this question it that wise answers to these questions and the ones you will likely raise will help all of us clarify church polity in terms of persons who want to follow Jesus but appear unconvicted of obvious (at least to us) sin.

Please select every option that applies and give comments and additional insights that explain your reasoning.

The 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith deals with this issue very nicely:

29.2._____ Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance.
( Mark 16:16; Acts 8:36, 37; Acts 2:41; Acts 8:12; Acts 18:8 )

If a candidate for baptism is defiant and intends to persist in known sin then their profession of faith is suspect and they are not a proper subject of the ordinance of baptism.

 

[Reynolds]

While this is a hypothetical question at this time, it was a real question in my parent's Baptist church in rural East Texas about a dozen years ago, with one minor change: The pastor wanted to receive the Grand Dragon without baptism by immersion since the man was afraid of water. I don't know how it eventually turned out, because my mother decided to join the nearby Methodist church immediately after that question was announced.

It brings up several questions at once (1) Does one need to repent of obvious sins (as perceived by the congregation and local community) before entering into a church fellowship? (2) When presenting the gospel, should the evangelist bring up the call of discipleship to Jesus that brings obligations in terms of morality, propriety, and service? In other words, how should "counting the cost" and "taking up the cross" be presented? (3) Should baptism be skipped over if the candidate has a fear of water? (4) Should the church simply trust that the Holy Spirit will work everything out in the life of the presumed convert, and receive that person into the fellowship, at potential cost to the reputation of the gospel and the church in the eyes of the larger community? (5) What role does church discipline play?

The reason I ask this question it that wise answers to these questions and the ones you will likely raise will help all of us clarify church polity in terms of persons who want to follow Jesus but appear unconvicted of obvious (at least to us) sin.

Please select every option that applies and give comments and additional insights that explain your reasoning.

Would you support the baptism of a glutton if they had no intention of changing their eating habits?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Would you support the baptism of a glutton if they had no intention of changing their eating habits?

(1) I would have to have evidence that they are truly gluttons, not just heavy. There are medical conditions that can make a person grossly overweight.
(2) And if they are gluttons, it depends on their attitude towards gluttony. If someone is intentionally and consistently eating and drinking to extreme without any concern or remorse, I would hesitate. If someone has a large meal from time to time (such celebrations, such as Thanksgiving, and special events), I wouldn't hesitate.

Be aware that I actually don't have carefully developed notions on this subject. I am truly seeking guidance from others on this issue. I realize that the answer probably lies in handling things on a case-by-case basis, but when Christians in a fellowship disagree, it is helpful to have some policy to guide the congregation.

 

[Reynolds]

(1) I would have to have evidence that they are truly gluttons, not just heavy. There are medical conditions that can make a person grossly overweight.
(2) And if they are gluttons, it depends on their attitude towards gluttony. If someone is intentionally and consistently eating and drinking to extreme without any concern or remorse, I would hesitate. If someone has a large meal from time to time (such celebrations, such as Thanksgiving, and special events), I wouldn't hesitate.

Be aware that I actually don't have carefully developed notions on this subject. I am truly seeking guidance from others on this issue. I realize that the answer probably lies in handling things on a case-by-case basis, but when Christians in a fellowship disagree, it is helpful to have some policy to guide the congregation.

I have never seen a fat person leave a concentration camp. Being overweight requires excessive calorie intake.
Having said that, my mind is not made up on the glutton or the Klansmen.

 

[Van]

Billy Graham's invitation tune was "just as I am." The old, clean yourself up first, then we will allow you into the fellowship, is as bogus as a three dollar bill. We are all sinners according to our own estimation, but we know that "in Christ" we are justified and so it is just as if we did not sin, in the eyes of God. We are to strive to become more Christ-like, and better witnesses as ambassadors of Christ. Which of us should cast the first stone? Better we work together in love to help each other walk the talk.

 

[Reynolds]

Billy Graham's invitation tune was "just as I am." The old, clean yourself up first, then we will allow you into the fellowship, is as bogus as a three dollar bill. We are all sinners according to our own estimation, but we know that "in Christ" we are justified and so it is just as if we did not sin, in the eyes of God. We are to strive to become more Christ-like, and better witnesses as ambassadors of Christ. Which of us should cast the first stone? Better we work together in love to help each other walk the talk.

You going to baptize a practicing, unrepentant homosexual?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

• Why would an unrepentant Klansman feel comfortable sitting under my preaching? I must be leaving something out.
• There's no such thing as a "dry" Baptist.

 

[InTheLight]

You going to baptize a practicing, unrepentant homosexual?

Along the same lines--would you baptize a recent professing convert if you smelled alcohol on their breath?


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[delizzle]

Galatians 5:13-26
"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."

The bottom line is this. Before I would baptize anyone, they must first demonstrate that they belong to Christ by showing that they have "crucified the flesh with its passions and desires". If they have no intention of leaving their racism behind, they have demonstrated that they are still walking in the flesh. They only way I would possible baptize such an individual is if they denounce their racism and the KKK and demonstrate some evidence that the Holy Spirit is performing a sanctifying work in their lives.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Being overweight requires excessive calorie intake.

That's simply not true. For instance, Cushing's Disease (a ACTH-producing tumor on the pituitary gland) fills the body with excess cortisol, causing the body to improperly metabolize food. As a result, the body starts storing every bit of fat and most carbs instead of allowing it to be burned off, causing excess weight gain around the face, neck and torso. Short of not eating at all -- which would lead to death after a number of weeks -- there's no way to prevent weight gain. I know this personally, since I am recovering from Cushing's Disease. I was well over 400 pounds by the time I was able to get the tumor removed and the weight has been slowly coming off without any special effort or dietary change. My doctor advised me not to go on a significant diet but to let the body find its optimum weight. When the weight loss plateaus, we will reassess.

Having said that, my mind is not made up on the glutton or the Klansmen.

Thank you for that. I look forward to your thoughts on the issue as they develop.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Billy Graham's invitation tune was "just as I am." The old, clean yourself up first, then we will allow you into the fellowship, is as bogus as a three dollar bill. We are all sinners according to our own estimation, but we know that "in Christ" we are justified and so it is just as if we did not sin, in the eyes of God.

I agree with this sentiment, but I think we should note that Graham offered salvation, not church membership. Church members bear responsibility to each other. Where does church discipline come in if this Klansman continues his work? What about those who live openly in sexual sin? What about those who make their living doing immoral things (not just referring to sex work, but evil businesses and practices)?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Along the same lines--would you baptize a recent professing convert if you smelled alcohol on their breath?

Alcohol on one's breath is not a sin in my understanding of the scriptures. Drunkeness is definitely a sin. So if someone was involved in a lifestyle of drunkenness, some members of the church need to step up and help the person find sobriety. If they want to be free of drunkeness, I would have no qualms baptizing them into the body of the local church.

 

[Reynolds]

That's simply not true. For instance, Cushing's Disease (a ACTH-producing tumor on the pituitary gland) fills the body with excess cortisol, causing the body to improperly metabolize food. As a result, the body starts storing every bit of fat and most carbs instead of allowing it to be burned off, causing excess weight gain around the face, neck and torso. Short of not eating at all -- which would lead to death after a number of weeks -- there's no way to prevent weight gain. I know this personally, since I am recovering from Cushing's Disease. I was well over 400 pounds by the time I was able to get the tumor removed and the weight has been slowly coming off without any special effort or dietary change. My doctor advised me not to go on a significant diet but to let the body find its optimum weight. When the weight loss plateaus, we will reassess.


Thank you for that. I look forward to your thoughts on the issue as they develop.

Medical conditions can contribute to weight gain, but the body can not produce excess fat without excess calories.

 

[Baptist Believer]

The bottom line is this. Before I would baptize anyone, they must first demonstrate that they belong to Christ by showing that they have "crucified the flesh with its passions and desires". If they have no intention of leaving their racism behind, they have demonstrated that they are still walking in the flesh. They only way I would possible baptize such an individual is if they denounce their racism and the KKK and demonstrate some evidence that the Holy Spirit is performing a sanctifying work in their lives.

Most Christians I have known have not received enough discipleship and teaching/training to walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh. Are you suggesting that there be a period of productive discipleship before baptism and church membership?


For what it's worth, I have know a number of Baptist preachers who have regularly and openly exhibited "...hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy..."

 

[Van]

You going to baptize a practicing, unrepentant homosexual?

Please address my view and do not manufacture a strawman. Do you not know Jesus uses broken reeds?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Medical conditions can contribute to weight gain, but the body can not produce excess fat without excess calories.

You simply don't know what you are talking about. Cushing's disables the metabolism of proteins and fats, so even persons on severe diets become malnourished while still gaining weight.

Like you, medical professionals make the same assumptions about patients -- if they are fat, then they are eating too much or too much of the wrong thing. Many cases that is true. After suffering from Cushing's Disease for about 14 years, I typed all of my symptoms into Google and recognized my symptoms in the entries on Cushing's Disease. Then I went through several rounds of medical professionals to get the appropriate tests and diagnosis. Even after I had a diagnosis of Cushing's Disease, with a significant tumor revealed on the MRI, the surgeon I went to told me everything was in my head and I needed to get off the sofa and stop eating chips. My symptoms started to become life threatening a month later, and I went to MD Anderson in Houston for a second opinion. They have experts in pituitary diseases there and they diagnosed me over the course of a month, scheduling surgery a few weeks later. The day after surgery, they drew a blood sample to check my cortisol levels and they were absolutely normal instead of highly elevated. The assumptions that people made about me nearly killed me. My kidney function was so bad I was headed toward dialysis within six months. My heart palpitations had grown so frequent, I was a poor surgical risk by the time they finally operated. I almost certainly wouldn't be alive now if I had not fought to get an appropriate diagnosis and treatment.

You should read up on Cushing's Disease in case you recognize it in someone else. Most doctors don't consider it because it is considered a rare disease. You may save a life.

 

[JonC]

Along the same lines--would you baptize a recent professing convert if you smelled alcohol on their breath?


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

Or had a DNC lapel pin?

 

[Van]

I agree with this sentiment, but I think we should note that Graham offered salvation, not church membership. Church members bear responsibility to each other. Where does church discipline come in if this Klansman continues his work? What about those who live openly in sexual sin? What about those who make their living doing immoral things (not just referring to sex work, but evil businesses and practices)?

Live faith, rather than dead faith, is the kind of faith from which faithfulness flows. When a disciple of Christ is taught all that Christ commanded and strives to follow those commands out of love for Christ, the result will a turning away from sin. All of us have problems, all of us need to become more like Christ, and when we do our ministry will grow.

 

[Reynolds]

Please address my view and do not manufacture a strawman. Do you not know Jesus uses broken reeds?

No straw man.