Would you support the baptism of a KKK leader if they had no intention of leaving racism behind?

[Reynolds]

You simply don't know what you are talking about. Cushing's disables the metabolism of proteins and fats, so even persons on severe diets become malnourished while still gaining weight.

Like you, medical professionals make the same assumptions about patients -- if they are fat, then they are eating too much or too much of the wrong thing. Many cases that is true. After suffering from Cushing's Disease for about 14 years, I typed all of my symptoms into Google and recognized my symptoms in the entries on Cushing's Disease. Then I went through several rounds of medical professionals to get the appropriate tests and diagnosis. Even after I had a diagnosis of Cushing's Disease, with a significant tumor revealed on the MRI, the surgeon I went to told me everything was in my head and I needed to get off the sofa and stop eating chips. My symptoms started to become life threatening a month later, and I went to MD Anderson in Houston for a second opinion. They have experts in pituitary diseases there and they diagnosed me over the course of a month, scheduling surgery a few weeks later. The day after surgery, they drew a blood sample to check my cortisol levels and they were absolutely normal instead of highly elevated. The assumptions that people made about me nearly killed me. My kidney function was so bad I was headed toward dialysis within six months. My heart palpitations had grown so frequent, I was a poor surgical risk by the time they finally operated. I almost certainly wouldn't be alive now if I had not fought to get an appropriate diagnosis and treatment.

You should read up on Cushing's Disease in case you recognize it in someone else. Most doctors don't consider it because it is considered a rare disease. You may save a life.

Cushings or not, you would not have weighed 400 lbs in a concentration camp.

 

[delizzle]

Most Christians I have known have not received enough discipleship and teaching/training to walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh. Are you suggesting that there be a period of productive discipleship before baptism and church membership?


For what it's worth, I have know a number of Baptist preachers who have regularly and openly exhibited "...hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy..."

Scripture is clear, you cannot walk in the Spirit and in the flesh at the same time because they are in conflict with each other. How this of course doesn't mean that a saved person is perfect and that they will never walk in the flesh. Rather, a saved person will not desire to walk in the flesh. Their desire will be to walk in the Spirit. Anyone who continues to live in deliberate sin in defiance to God without any repentance or remorse has not demonstrated that they have "died to self". They may believe in God, "But even the demons believe and tremble". The issue is not that the individual was a member of the KKK, rather his having "no intention of leaving racism behind". This is no different than if the individual was a child molester who had absolutely no remorse or desire to leave child molestation behind. As Baptists, I think that we all can agree that the physical act of water baptism doesn't save. Rather, it is an ordinance which symbolizes their spiritual death and resurrection as new creations with Christ. Therefore, in my opinion, to baptize such an individual who has not demonstrated this work of the Spirit only gives them a false sense of security which encourages their wickedness and cheapens the ordinance itself.

 

[robycop3]

A true Christian does not practice racism, homosexuality, or anything else that's outright sin.

 

[NoQuieroUnQueso]

At my church, the pastor won't baptize anyone who just walks in. He'll definitely invite them to come to our church, and time will tell what that person's true intentions are. I think time is a great way to test people, and over time a KKK member is either going to get to know the people in the church and eventually change their ways or get uncomfortable and leave.

 

[1689Dave]

While this is a hypothetical question at this time, it was a real question in my parent's Baptist church in rural East Texas about a dozen years ago, with one minor change: The pastor wanted to receive the Grand Dragon without baptism by immersion since the man was afraid of water. I don't know how it eventually turned out, because my mother decided to join the nearby Methodist church immediately after that question was announced.

It brings up several questions at once (1) Does one need to repent of obvious sins (as perceived by the congregation and local community) before entering into a church fellowship? (2) When presenting the gospel, should the evangelist bring up the call of discipleship to Jesus that brings obligations in terms of morality, propriety, and service? In other words, how should "counting the cost" and "taking up the cross" be presented? (3) Should baptism be skipped over if the candidate has a fear of water? (4) Should the church simply trust that the Holy Spirit will work everything out in the life of the presumed convert, and receive that person into the fellowship, at potential cost to the reputation of the gospel and the church in the eyes of the larger community? (5) What role does church discipline play?

The reason I ask this question it that wise answers to these questions and the ones you will likely raise will help all of us clarify church polity in terms of persons who want to follow Jesus but appear unconvicted of obvious (at least to us) sin.

Please select every option that applies and give comments and additional insights that explain your reasoning.

In scripture it is always "repent and be baptized".

 

[1689Dave]

“And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;” Acts 17:26 (KJV 1900)

“By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:10 (NASB95)

“If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.” 1 John 4:20 (NASB95)

 

[GoodTidings]

Medical conditions can contribute to weight gain, but the body can not produce excess fat without excess calories.

Not true. Over production of insulin can increase weight dramatically in those with diabetes. And one does not have to eat a lot food for that too happen a handful potato chips or a glass of diet soda can cause that to happen.

 

[GoodTidings]

No one who hates someone of another race is saved. You cannot be an impenitent racist and claim to know Jesus as Savior and Lord.

 

[Reynolds]

Insulin can not make fat without a calorie excess. It can dramatically change the point at which excess occurs. Without sunburned calories, you can't produce fat. It is a medical impossibility.

 

[1689Dave]

Isn't there a huge difference between being somewhat portly and hating people for no reason?

 

[MartyF]

(1) Does one need to repent of obvious sins (as perceived by the congregation and local community) before entering into a church fellowship?

The perception by the congregation is the only one which matters. One needs to state that they are willing to work on any obvious sins.

(2) When presenting the gospel, should the evangelist bring up the call of discipleship to Jesus that brings obligations in terms of morality, propriety, and service? In other words, how should "counting the cost" and "taking up the cross" be presented?

I'd give them the NLT. That way I don't have to worry about "my presentation".

(3) Should baptism be skipped over if the candidate has a fear of water?

No. But to be honest, I would have to really see something like that to believe it. Sounds like a lame excuse like "I have a fear of tests" or "I have a fear of work."

(4) Should the church simply trust that the Holy Spirit will work everything out in the life of the presumed convert, and receive that person into the fellowship, at potential cost to the reputation of the gospel and the church in the eyes of the larger community?

Jesus accepted all sorts before he died. I would say yes unless one feels the desire to follow Jesus is not genuine.

(5) What role does church discipline play?

Last time I read, someone had to be sleeping with his stepmother before something happened. And even then, they later accepted him back.

 

[MartyF]

Like you, medical professionals make the same assumptions about patients -- if they are fat, then they are eating too much or too much of the wrong thing.

I understand. A relative of mine was at one point proscribed hormone treatment for menopause when she didn't have. Another time a relative of mine was proscribed Prozac since the doctors thought she was insane because they couldn't find the cause of her pain. Later, a brand new doctor discovered it was gall stones several years later. After the gall bladder was removed, the pain went away.

I trust doctors as far as I can get into medical school.

 

[GoodTidings]

Insulin can not make fat without a calorie excess. It can dramatically change the point at which excess occurs. Without sunburned calories, you can't produce fat. It is a medical impossibility.

Insulin is produced due to sugar production in the body and a small amount of food that not necessarily high in calories, but that is high in sugar can produce excess insulin and that insulin is stored as fat. You don't have eat large amounts of food.

Not everyone knows they are diabetic. You can be diabetic for years and not know it because it is a progressive disease. People who are diabetic are often overweight, not because they eat large quantities of food, but because their bodies are over-producing too much insulin.

The artificial sweeteners in diet soda and 0-calorie flavored waters/drinks have same affect on the brain as sugary foods like a candy bar and it causes the body to release excess insulin each time. So even if your not overeating, even if your calorie intake is low, your body can still over-produce insulin and that excess insulin is stored as fat.

 

[GoodTidings]

Isn't there a huge difference between being somewhat portly and hating people for no reason?

Yes, there is a moral distinction. The problem is that some people who perhaps want to deflect from a particular sin, always bring up common excesses and foibles. But there is a difference between being overweight and being a glutton.

Over-eating is not "gluttony." Gluttony is the worship of food.

Being overweight is not a sin. It is not a good thing, but the Bible doesn't claim that people who are overweight are living in sin.

 

[Reynolds]

Insulin is produced due to sugar production in the body and a small amount of food that not necessarily high in calories, but that is high in sugar can produce excess insulin and that insulin is stored as fat. You don't have eat large amounts of food.

Not everyone knows they are diabetic. You can be diabetic for years and not know it because it is a progressive disease. People who are diabetic are often overweight, not because they eat large quantities of food, but because their bodies are over-producing too much insulin.

The artificial sweeteners in diet soda and 0-calorie flavored waters/drinks have same affect on the brain as sugary foods like a candy bar and it causes the body to release excess insulin each time. So even if your not overeating, even if your calorie intake is low, your body can still over-produce insulin and that excess insulin is stored as fat.

I know. My doctor successfully treats type 1 diabetes with diet. (Yes type 1)

 

[HankD]

That's simply not true. For instance, Cushing's Disease (a ACTH-producing tumor on the pituitary gland) fills the body with excess cortisol, causing the body to improperly metabolize food. As a result, the body starts storing every bit of fat and most carbs instead of allowing it to be burned off, causing excess weight gain around the face, neck and torso. Short of not eating at all -- which would lead to death after a number of weeks -- there's no way to prevent weight gain. I know this personally, since I am recovering from Cushing's Disease. I was well over 400 pounds by the time I was able to get the tumor removed and the weight has been slowly coming off without any special effort or dietary change. My doctor advised me not to go on a significant diet but to let the body find its optimum weight. When the weight loss plateaus, we will reassess..

We hear this all the time that certain diseases cause body FAT.

I don't believe it because you can't make SOMETHING (FAT) out of NOTHING, that's primordial creation and only God can do that.

Also we have seen pictures of people in Nazi concentration camps who WERE on a VERY LIMITED DIET, I have yet to see a fat person among them (with cushings?).

P.S. maybe you should find another doctor - second opinion?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Cushings or not, you would not have weighed 400 lbs in a concentration camp.

I would probably still weigh 400 lbs, but I would be dead.

 

[Baptist Believer]

In scripture it is always "repent and be baptized".

There are places that don't mention baptism, but they do involve identifying with Jesus, which is one of the main purposes of baptism. I think a good way to look at it is that baptism is one of the first acts of obedience/discipleship that a convert undertakes.

 

[Baptist Believer]

No one who hates someone of another race is saved. You cannot be an impenitent racist and claim to know Jesus as Savior and Lord.

I generally agree, but it is possible for people to have enormous blind spots. Many of our Baptist ancestors in the South were racists, and when it was legal, owned slaves. I do not think we can simply claim they were not saved because the hardness of the human heart and the various types of blind spots that entangle all of us.

 

[Baptist Believer]

No. But to be honest, I would have to really see something like that to believe it. Sounds like a lame excuse like "I have a fear of tests" or "I have a fear of work."

Regarding the fear of water, my mother said that she believed the man was afraid of water, because he looked ragged and dirty. I don't know if she was just being hypercritical because of her disgust with her pastor's* willingness to let this man continue in his KKK activities, or if that was objectively the case.

* This was the last straw for her. The pastor had made frequent allusions to racist ideas and he seemed to studiously avoid dealing with anyone who was not white. There were no ethnic minorities in the congregation, including Hispanic folks, which is extremely unusual in Texas.