Do we have free will to choose to believe and follow God?

[3rdAngel]

Actually, God grants us saving faith before we hear the Gospel!

NO! Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17. Now if faith comes by the Word of God how can we have faith if we have never heard it and there is no Word? There is no faith without God's Word.

 

[3rdAngel]

I would somewhat agree with that, except, for a major issue you seem to overlook, which is that once one dies to himself and is born again and becomes a child of God their All Powerful, Wise and Loving Father is NOT going to allow His child to become lost. This does not deny their free will to fall away but rather sets the condition that as an adopted child of God His providential control in your life is more than enough to keep His child’s faith within the free choices that they have.

(Joh 8:36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

I’m not sure what your draw is in attempting to teach believers that they can lose their salvation but in doing so, as I have told you, you have missed a very important part of the Gospel of God’s grace being free with your backtracking measuring stick interpretations and must overlook the meaning of being a child within the Loving Power of God to keep those born again to Him.

He doesn’t force His children because He doesn’t have to, regardless of their human volitional abilities, once they become a child of God the influence of their father’s loving grace is sufficient for that child’s continued free response of faith.

But, I’ll be waiting for you to show me how those saints I listed for you, who were not “following” God’s commandments not to sin, those children who were exposed as continuing in sin, …like you

, ...were not saved. I won’t hold my breath for you to do so.

You are mixing up becoming lost (not following the God's Word through faith) with becoming found (following God's Word by faith). This of course is different from knowingly departing the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin *HEBREWS 6:4-8. Although it is true many will depart the faith to follow the teachings of men and the doctrines of devils *1 TIMOTHY 4:1; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12. We are free to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not to believe and follow God's Word *JOHN 3:15-21. It is only those who choose to believe and follow God's Word that are God's Sheep (believers) *JOHN 10:26-27. God's Word says it is not God's will for us to sin but if any man sin and is repentant for their sins we have an advocate with the father *1 JOHN 2:1-4

 

[Alan Gross]

'''

Paul, as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God chose to forgive......

Nothing in any of the verses sited have anything to do with lost souls.

"Free will is without necessity
Free will is without compulsion
Free will is without force
Free will is a will not pressured
Free will is from one own heart
Free will is a voluntary
Free will is of your own accord
Free will is without constraint

"And one last verse not Phm 1:14

"1 Corinthians 7:37 (KJV) 37 Nevertheless he, ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God ) that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

"Free will has no necessity and is under ones own power ( for a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God )


"Deuteronomy 30:19 KJB - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated children of God ) [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

"JOSHUA 24:14-15 [14], Now therefore fear the LORD, ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God ) and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve you the LORD. [15], And if it seem evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God ) whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated children of God ) we will serve the LORD.


...

Do we have free will to choose to believe and follow God?

No.

Hi all some interesting scriptures shared from a good brother.

SOME INTERESTING SCRIPTURES ON FREE WILL



...

"That thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but
willingly;"

that is, that his goodness in forgiving his servant, and renouncing all claim and property in him, and admitting him to continue in the service of the apostle, might not look like a forced thing; but that it might appear to be a voluntary action, when he should of himself return him, after he had been thus sent to him, and received by him.

from: Philemon 1:14 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible


My re-wording, for clarification for the modern reader.

that is, that Paul's goodness,
as a saved Individual in forgiving his servant,

Paul, as a saved Individual was...

renouncing all claim and property in him,

and admitting him to continue
in the service of the Apostle,

Then, Paul, as a saved Individual...

might not look like
his Spiritual Decision to Forgive his servant

was forced thing;


but that it might appear to be a voluntary action, ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God ) when he should of himself ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God ) return him, after he had been thus sent to him, and received by him.

...

It is interesting: that A SAVED CHILD of GOD
made A decision to FORGIVE...WILLINGLY....




* from: Philemon 1:14 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

 

[Alan Gross]

Whoever believe is just that. Anybody can believe. Many called but few are chosen because men loved darkness rather then light because their deeds were evil.

The "whosoever" are Elect.

 

[Alan Gross]

I'm afraid you'll you have to show me where in the Bible God re-designed His creature's attributes after Adam so that they no longer had human volition.

All Human Beings have 'human volition' that dead toward God.

 

[3rdAngel]

'''

Paul, as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God chose to forgive......

Nothing in any of the verses sited have anything to do with lost souls.

"Free will is without necessity
Free will is without compulsion
Free will is without force
Free will is a will not pressured
Free will is from one own heart
Free will is a voluntary
Free will is of your own accord
Free will is without constraint

"And one last verse not Phm 1:14

"1 Corinthians 7:37 (KJV) 37 Nevertheless he, ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God ) that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

"Free will has no necessity and is under ones own power ( for a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God )


"Deuteronomy 30:19 KJB - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated children of God ) [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

"JOSHUA 24:14-15 [14], Now therefore fear the LORD, ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God ) and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve you the LORD. [15], And if it seem evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God ) whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated children of God ) we will serve the LORD.


...

Do we have free will to choose to believe and follow God?

No.

Hi all some interesting scriptures shared from a good brother.

SOME INTERESTING SCRIPTURES ON FREE WILL



...

"That thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but
willingly;"

that is, that his goodness in forgiving his servant, and renouncing all claim and property in him, and admitting him to continue in the service of the apostle, might not look like a forced thing; but that it might appear to be a voluntary action, when he should of himself return him, after he had been thus sent to him, and received by him.

from: Philemon 1:14 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible


My re-wording, for clarification for the modern reader.

that is, that Paul's goodness,
as a saved Individual in forgiving his servant,

Paul, as a saved Individual was...

renouncing all claim and property in him,

and admitting him to continue
in the service of the Apostle,

Then, Paul, as a saved Individual...

might not look like
his Spiritual Decision to Forgive his servant

was forced thing;


but that it might appear to be a voluntary action, ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God ) when he should of himself ( as a Saved soul, Born Again, Full of The Holy Spirit, Partaker of The Divine Nature, Re-Generated child of God ) return him, after he had been thus sent to him, and received by him.

...

It is interesting: that A SAVED CHILD of GOD
made A decision to FORGIVE...WILLINGLY....


* from: Philemon 1:14 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Thanks Allan but nothing you have posted here says that we do not have free will to believe and follow God's Word.

The GREEK from the OP on PHILEMON 1:14 says this...

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon

ἑκουσιος , ἑκουσιον (ἑκων), “voluntary”: κατα ἑκουσιον, “of free will,” Philemon 1:14. (Numbers 15:3; καθ' ἑκουσιαν, Thucydides 8, 27 — *

Vines
Usage Notes: "willing," is used with kata in Philem. 1:14, lit., "according to willing," RV, "of free will" (AV, "willingly").

ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον (Soph., Thu.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Philo) voluntary, as a volunteer κατὰ ἑκούσιον (opp. κατὰ ἀνάγκην) of one’s own free will Phlm 14 (Num 15:3

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 243.

ἑκούσιος hekousios; from 1635; of free will, voluntary:—free will(1).

Robert L. Thomas, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries : Updated Edition (Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc., 1998).

ἑκούσιος
hekousios, adj., willing; acting of free will; willingly. 14× +NT

The Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Septuagint (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012).

Hope this helps....

 

[3rdAngel]

The "whosoever" are Elect.

The "Whoever" is just as it reads. Anyone who chooses to believe God's Word *JOHN 3:15-21. Those who believe and follow God's Word are God's Sheep (believers) *JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-27. Those who choose not to believe and follow God's Word are not His Sheep *JOHN 10:26. The "whoever" is an invitation to everyone although not all will choose to receive it. Many are called but few are chosen. The chosen are all those who believe and follow.

God's Sheep (believers) hear His Voice (the Word of God)

 

[Alan Gross]

Thanks Allan but nothing you have posted here says that we do not have free will to believe and follow God's Word.

The GREEK from the OP on PHILEMON 1:14 says this...

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon

ἑκουσιος , ἑκουσιον (ἑκων), “voluntary”: κατα ἑκουσιον, “of free will,” Philemon 1:14. (Numbers 15:3; καθ' ἑκουσιαν, Thucydides 8, 27 — *

Vines
Usage Notes: "willing," is used with kata in Philem. 1:14, lit., "according to willing," RV, "of free will" (AV, "willingly").

ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον (Soph., Thu.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Philo) voluntary, as a volunteer κατὰ ἑκούσιον (opp. κατὰ ἀνάγκην) of one’s own free will Phlm 14 (Num 15:3

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 243.

ἑκούσιος hekousios; from 1635; of free will, voluntary:—free will(1).

Robert L. Thomas, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries : Updated Edition (Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc., 1998).

ἑκούσιος
hekousios, adj., willing; acting of free will; willingly. 14× +NT

The Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Septuagint (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012).

Hope this helps....

Saved souls are discussed in the verses you quoted.

There has never been anything indicating a lost person does any of the things in those verses.

 

[Alan Gross]

The "Whoever" is just as it reads. Anyone who chooses to believe God's Word *JOHN 3:15-21. Those who believe and follow God's Word are God's Sheep (believers) *JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-27. Those who choose not to believe and follow God's Word are not His Sheep *JOHN 10:26. The "whoever" is an invitation to everyone although not all will choose to receive it. Many are called but few are chosen. The chosen are all those who believe and follow.

God's Sheep (believers) hear His Voice (the Word of God)

Nope.

 

[3rdAngel]

Saved souls are discussed in the verses you quoted.
There has never been anything indicating a lost person does any of the things in those verses.

The scripture is only one of many that shows we have free will. The GREEK says we have free will. The scriptures also show we have free will to believe and follow God's Word wheather we are believers or unbelievers *JOHN 3:15-21. Not everyone will hear the invitation. Many are called but few are chosen.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ The "Whoever" is just as it reads. Anyone who chooses to believe God's Word *JOHN 3:15-21. Those who believe and follow God's Word are God's Sheep (believers) *JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-27. Those who choose not to believe and follow God's Word are not His Sheep *JOHN 10:26. The "whoever" is an invitation to everyone although not all will choose to receive it. Many are called but few are chosen. The chosen are all those who believe and follow.

God's Sheep (believers) hear His Voice (the Word of God)

Your response...

Nope.

You were provided God's Word. Your response is "Nope". They are God's Word not mine. You respond with your words denying God's Word. I choose to believe and follow God's Word. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. *ROMANS 3:4. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

God bless

 

[Alan Gross]

God never leaves us or forsakes us

> That verse is a Promise in regard to Jesus' churches and without Bible knowlegde of The Church that Jesus Built: that person can't get God's Message there.

*HEBREWS 13:5
...

> and is not willing that any should perish

> The Bible Says in the King James Version:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

For someone who can not read the word, 'us-ward', in that verse, will not understand what God's Message is there.

With the 'us-ward' being Spoken to, the implication is clearly:

" The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any (of us-ward) should perish, (as a Temperal death, esulting from sin of the' us-ward' believer) but that all (of the Saved us-ward he is speaking to would repent of their fleshly behavior and avoid perishing, physically) should come to repentance."

*2 PETER 3:9.

...

We however are free to believe or not to believe and follow His Word *JOHN 3:15-21.

> The Elect Believe and Confirm they are the Elect, when God Gives them Repentance and Faith.

...

God never forces us to believe and follow His Word and it is us that leaves and forsakes God by not believing and following God's Word

Philosophy.

...

*HEBREWS 6:4-8;

4 "For it is impossible for those (8... that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.)
who were once enlightened, (been exposed to The Eternal Word of God) and have tasted the heavenly gifts (been exposed to The Eternal Word of God, but are those that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned) and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
been exposed to The Eternal Word of God, and it's Affect, with The Holy Spirit on other souls who got Saved, but are those that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned)

5" And have tasted the good word of God, (same) and the powers of the world to come, (same, and still lost)

6 "If they shall fall away, (since they thought they had Experienced something Spiritual, as others had, but they did not and were still lost) to renew them again unto repentance; (to go the same route they went before, with a substitute for actual God-Given Repentance, even though they had been exposed to Spiritual things, but were never Converted) seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (look, you said you 'repented' and were a Saved Child of God, now you are out in sin, like a lost person, because you are a lost person, and you want to go with the, 'I take it back, let me think simple fleshly 'belief' in something religious, like 'Jesus', and we'll say I'm 'saved' this time'. No. You are lost. Your religious going back and forth is irrational. You're saying Jesus 'Came Back and died again? Nope. They were and are:8 "... that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." .)

7. "For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

On and on.

HEBREWS 10:26-38;

2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12.

God's Sheep (believers) hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him and it is to those who believe His Word that no one plucks out of His hand and to those who believe and follow His Word that he gives everlasting life *JOHN 10:26-28.

 

[3rdAngel]

God never leaves us or forsakes us HEBREWS 13:5
That verse is a Promise in regard to Jesus' churches and without Bible knowlegde of The Church that Jesus Built: that person can't get God's Message there.

Sorry Allan I have no idea what your trying to say here or do I read your interpretation of HEBREWS 13:5 in the scriptures.

> and is not willing that any should perish > The Bible Says in the King James Version: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." For someone who can not read the word, 'us-ward', in that verse, will not understand what God's Message is there. With the 'us-ward' being Spoken to, the implication is clearly:

" The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any (of us-ward) should perish, (as a Temperal death, esulting from sin of the' us-ward' believer) but that all (of the Saved us-ward he is speaking to would repent of their fleshly behavior and avoid perishing, physically) should come to repentance." *2 PETER 3:9.

Adding the context of 2 PETER 3:9 we read...

2 PETER 3:1-14 [1], This second letter, beloved (believers), I now write to you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: [2], That you (believers) may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us (believers) the apostles of the Lord and Savior: [3], Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers (unbelievers), walking after their own lusts, [4], And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. [5], For this they (unbelievers) willingly are ignorant of, that by the WORD OF GOD the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: [6], Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: [7], But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved to fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (unbelievers). [8], But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [9], The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men (unbelievers) count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward (believers), not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [10], But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [11], Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you (believers) to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [12], Looking for and hastening to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? [13], Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness. [14], Why, beloved, seeing that you look for such things, be diligent that you may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

With context added in...

2 PETER 3:1-9 is about believers and unbelievers v9 says [9], The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men (unbelievers) count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward (believers and unbelievers; mankind), not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So the way I read this with the context being about believers and unbelievers is that God is longsuffering to all of mankind because he does not want anyone to be lost but that all to be saved. We know however that not all will be saved. Context matters.

We however are free to believe or not to believe and follow His Word *JOHN 3:15-21. > The Elect Believe and Confirm they are the Elect, when God Gives them Repentance and Faith.

Those who believe and follow God's Word are God's Sheep (believers; God's elect) *JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-27. Those who choose not to believe and follow God's Word are not His Sheep (God's elect) *JOHN 10:26. The "whoever" is an invitation to everyone although not all will choose to receive it. Many are called but few are chosen. The chosen are all those who believe and follow. God's Sheep (believers) hear His Voice (the Word of God)

God never forces us to believe and follow His Word and it is us that leaves and forsakes God by not believing and following God's Word

Philosophy.

God's Word teaches that we have free will to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not believe and follow God's Word as shown in the scriptures in the OP and that it is us that forsakes God's Word if we choose to do so *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-38; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12; 2 PETER 2:1-21; MATTHEW 13:20-21. Philosophy is a man made teaching outsode of God's Word which is what you are sharing here and is not God's Word. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4

to be continued...

 

[3rdAngel]

*HEBREWS 6:4-8; 4 "For it is impossible for those (8... that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.) who were once enlightened, (been exposed to The Eternal Word of God) and have tasted the heavenly gifts (been exposed to The Eternal Word of God, but are those that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned) and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, been exposed to The Eternal Word of God, and it's Affect, with The Holy Spirit on other souls who got Saved, but are those that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned) 5" And have tasted the good word of God, (same) and the powers of the world to come, (same, and still lost) 6 "If they shall fall away, (since they thought they had Experienced something Spiritual, as others had, but they did not and were still lost) to renew them again unto repentance; (to go the same route they went before, with a substitute for actual God-Given Repentance, even though they had been exposed to Spiritual things, but were never Converted) seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (look, you said you 'repented' and were a Saved Child of God, now you are out in sin, like a lost person, because you are a lost person, and you want to go with the, 'I take it back, let me think simple fleshly 'belief' in something religious, like 'Jesus', and we'll say I'm 'saved' this time'. No. You are lost. Your religious going back and forth is irrational. You're saying Jesus 'Came Back and died again? Nope. They were and are:8 "... that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." .)7. "For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

On and on.
HEBREWS 10:26-38;

Hi Alan, you may need to explain yourself a little better here. If your trying to argue that HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 is not in reference to those who were once believers, let's examine what the scriptures say in detail...

God's Word says that these people are in all reference to those who were once believers...

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; WHOS END IS TO BE BURNED.

The following are taken from the above scriptures...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

Same for HEBREWS 10:26-38

HEBREWS 10:26-31 [26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YOU SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions; [33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used. [34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. [35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.
[37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

The following are taken from the above scriptures...

1. WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26
2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27
5. WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an UNHOLY thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; HEBREWS 10:29

6. WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; HEBREWS 10:35

7. WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; HEBREWS 10:36
8. WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; HEBREWS 10:38

All of the above is God's Word not mine and are written as WARNINGS to BELIEVERS who once believed God's WORD but departed the faith.

Do you not believe these scriptures?

 

[Alan Gross]

Sorry Allan I have no idea what your trying to say here or do I read your interpretation of HEBREWS 13:5 in the scriptures.



Adding the context of 2 PETER 3:9 we read...

2 PETER 3:1-14 [1], This second letter, beloved (believers), I now write to you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: [2], That you (believers) may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us (believers) the apostles of the Lord and Savior: [3], Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers (unbelievers), walking after their own lusts, [4], And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. [5], For this they (unbelievers) willingly are ignorant of, that by the WORD OF GOD the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: [6], Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: [7], But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved to fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (unbelievers). [8], But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [9], The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men (unbelievers) count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward (believers), not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [10], But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [11], Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you (believers) to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [12], Looking for and hastening to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? [13], Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness. [14], Why, beloved, seeing that you look for such things, be diligent that you may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

With context added in...

2 PETER 3:1-9 is about believers and unbelievers v9 says [9], The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men (unbelievers) count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward (believers and unbelievers; mankind), not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So the way I read this with the context being about believers and unbelievers is that God is longsuffering to all of mankind because he does not want anyone to be lost but that all to be saved. We know however that not all will be saved. Context matters.



Those who believe and follow God's Word are God's Sheep (believers; God's elect) *JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-27. Those who choose not to believe and follow God's Word are not His Sheep (God's elect) *JOHN 10:26. The "whoever" is an invitation to everyone although not all will choose to receive it. Many are called but few are chosen. The chosen are all those who believe and follow. God's Sheep (believers) hear His Voice (the Word of God)



God's Word teaches that we have free will to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not believe and follow God's Word as shown in the scriptures in the OP and that it is us that forsakes God's Word if we choose to do so *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-38; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12; 2 PETER 2:1-21; MATTHEW 13:20-21. Philosophy is a man made teaching outsode of God's Word which is what you are sharing here and is not God's Word. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4

to be continued...

Off.

 

[Alan Gross]

Hi Alan, you may need to explain yourself a little better here. If your trying to argue that HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 is not in reference to those who were once believers, let's examine what the scriptures say in detail...

God's Word says that these people are in all reference to those who were once believers...

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; WHOS END IS TO BE BURNED.

The following are taken from the above scriptures...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

Same for HEBREWS 10:26-38

HEBREWS 10:26-31 [26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YOU SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions; [33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used. [34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. [35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.
[37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

The following are taken from the above scriptures...

1. WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26
2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27
5. WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an UNHOLY thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; HEBREWS 10:29

6. WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; HEBREWS 10:35

7. WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; HEBREWS 10:36
8. WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; HEBREWS 10:38

All of the above is God's Word not mine and are written as WARNINGS to BELIEVERS who once believed God's WORD but departed the faith.

Do you not believe these scriptures?

These incorrect musings have been stated and answered innumerable times through the Centuries.

You missed it all and are off.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 are not in reference to those who were once believers to believers is all.

 

[Alan Gross]

All descendants of Adam are dead in trespasses and sins.

They must be Quickened.

You must be born again.

 

[3rdAngel]

Off.

God's Word is not off. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. You have only been provided God's Word but it seems you do not believe it? Please feel free to address the post and the scriptures in them that disagree with you.

 

[3rdAngel]

These incorrect musings have been stated and answered innumerable times through the Centuries.

You missed it all and are off.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 are not in reference to those who were once believers to believers is all.

Well that is not true. I can understand why you do not wish to address the post and the scriptures that disagree with you as they shown with the Word of God alone that HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-31 is talking about those who were once believers and departed the faith. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

 

[utilyan]

You have 3 choices.

1) God alone saves people. = God gets all the glory.

2) People save themselves with God's help. = you get the glory and split the rest with God.

3) People save themselves. = you get all the glory.

Only one is true. And the other 2 present a false gospel and a false Christ.

No your perspective allows for more possibilities.

Since a perpetrator of evil doesn't rescue from himself.

Its like saying a mass shooter SAVED hundreds of lives because he decided only killing twenty.

4) God doesn't save at all, sole source of evil. God does not forgive takes sadistic payment on Jesus.