Do we have free will to choose to believe and follow God?

[utilyan]

Ezekiel 33

11“Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

God doesn't want to damn the wicked.


Matthew 25

40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

The good works you do, you do for Christ. It doesn't say for one's own glory.


Matthew 25

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

It says the eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, It does not say it was prepared for the goats and "reprobates".

 

[1689Dave]

No your perspective allows for more possibilities.

Since a perpetrator of evil doesn't rescue from himself.

Its like saying a mass shooter SAVED hundreds of lives because he decided only killing twenty.

4) God doesn't save at all, sole source of evil. God does not forgive takes sadistic payment on Jesus.

This is not even close to what I'm saying. Most think they are the Rock Stars (#2), and end up splitting the glory in salvation with God who is their "roadie".

 

[utilyan]

This is not even close to what I'm saying. Most think they are the Rock Stars (#2), and end up splitting the glory in salvation with God who is their "roadie".

Well then it should be a piece of cake naming one person who claims glory for his own salvation.

 

[1689Dave]

Well then it should be a piece of cake naming one person who claims glory for his own salvation.

It shows up in their attitudes. If water seeks its own level, then deciding to chum around with God when bad guys don't, says alot about the integrity of those who do.

 

[GaoLu]

Some have free will and use it responsibly. Some understand their failure to overcome sin as lack of freewill, thereby functionally blaming God even if the words they speak say otherwise. That should be no surprise. With due grace, I think some parrot the words because tradition runs deep, without really thinking through the meaning.

 

[Alan Gross]

Well that is not true. I can understand why you do not wish to address the post and the scriptures that disagree with you as they shown with the Word of God alone that HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-31 is talking about those who were once believers and departed the faith. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

Is this where I was disobedient and did not address the post?

"God never leaves us or forsakes us"

> That verse is a Promise in regard to Jesus' churches and without Bible knowlegde of The Church that Jesus Built: that person can't get God's Message there.

*HEBREWS 13:5
...

> and is not willing that any should perish

> The Bible Says in the King James Version:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

For someone who can not read the word, 'us-ward', in that verse, they will not understand what God's Message is there.

With the Saved Individuals, referred to as, 'us-ward', being Spoken to, the implication is clearly:

" The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any (of us-ward, as Saved Individuals) should perish, (as a Temperal death, resulting from sin of the' us-ward' believer) but that all (of the Saved us-ward he is speaking to, would repent of their fleshly behavior and avoid perishing, physically) should come to repentance."

*2 PETER 3:9.

...

We however are free to believe or not to believe and follow His Word *JOHN 3:15-21.

> The Elect Believe and Confirm they are the Elect, when God Gives them Repentance and Faith.

The Elect "believe".

The Elect Believe and Confirm they are the "whosoever", when God Gives them Repentance and Faith.

...

God never forces us to believe and follow His Word and it is us that leaves and forsakes God by not believing and following God's Word

Philosophy.

Lost individuals warped Philosophy.

God has nothing to 'force', in a lost soul, to make them do anything Spiritual.

Their soul is dead, Spiritually.

The lost soul must be Born Again and Given Spiritual belief that they did not possess.

...

*HEBREWS 6:4-8;

4 "For it is impossible for those (8... that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.)
who were once enlightened, (been exposed to The Eternal Word of God) and have tasted the heavenly gifts (been exposed to The Eternal Word of God, but are those that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned) and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
been exposed to The Eternal Word of God, and it's Affect, with The Holy Spirit on other souls who got Saved, but are those that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned)

5" And have tasted the good word of God, (same) and the powers of the world to come, (same, and still lost)

6 "If they shall fall away, (since they thought they had Experienced something Spiritual, as others had, but they did not and were still lost) to renew them again unto repentance; (to go the same route they went before, with a substitute for actual God-Given Repentance, even though they had been exposed to Spiritual things, but were never Converted) seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (look, you said you 'repented' and were a Saved Child of God, now you are out in sin, like a lost person, because you are a lost person, and you want to go with the, 'I take it back, let me think simple fleshly 'belief' in something religious, like 'Jesus', and we'll say I'm 'saved' this time'. No. You are lost. Your religious going back and forth is irrational. You're saying Jesus 'Came Back and died again? Nope. They were and are:8 "... that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." .)

7. "For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

On and on.

 

[Alan Gross]

Some have free will and use it responsibly. Some understand their failure to overcome sin as lack of freewill, thereby functionally blaming God even if the words they speak say otherwise. That should be no surprise. With due grace, I think some parrot the words because tradition runs deep, without really thinking through the meaning.

You will not come unto Me that you might have Life, is Eternally Fatal, and the position of all lost souls.

 

[1689Dave]

Does God have a free will? Can he violate his nature and send everyone in heaven to hell just to prove he can do it?

 

[Alan Gross]

No your perspective allows for more possibilities.

Since a perpetrator of evil doesn't rescue from himself.

Its like saying a mass shooter SAVED hundreds of lives because he decided only killing twenty.

4) God doesn't save at all, sole source of evil. God does not forgive takes sadistic payment on Jesus.

Dave, Jesus is The Savior, so 1.) is the correct answer with regard to the understanding of a Saved soul that Jesus is The Savior, as you know.

It is as if a lost soul does not believe that Jesus is The Savior.

 

[37818]

Yes even our faith comes from God through His Word *ROMANS 10:17. Thank you for agreeing with me.

What is often missed in Romans 10:17 is the word of God referred to is God's natural revelation, Romans 10:18; Psalms 19:4, giving all men the basis for faith. So there is no excuse, Romans 10:16; Isaiah 53:1-12, for not believing the special revelation God has given us in His written word.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm afraid you'll you have to show me where in the Bible God re-designed His creature's attributes after Adam so that they no longer had human volition.

God did not redesign, its more that Adam himself brought upon us all that sin nature now!

 

[Yeshua1]

NO! Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17. Now if faith comes by the Word of God how can we have faith if we have never heard it and there is no Word? There is no faith without God's Word.

The Gospel message ONLY works among the elect, as those still in their lost sin natures stay spiritually deaf and blind!

 

[3rdAngel]

Is this where I was disobedient and did not address the post?

"God never leaves us or forsakes us"

> That verse is a Promise in regard to Jesus' churches and without Bible knowlegde of The Church that Jesus Built: that person can't get God's Message there.

*HEBREWS 13:5
...

> and is not willing that any should perish

> The Bible Says in the King James Version:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

For someone who can not read the word, 'us-ward', in that verse, they will not understand what God's Message is there.

With the Saved Individuals, referred to as, 'us-ward', being Spoken to, the implication is clearly:

" The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any (of us-ward, as Saved Individuals) should perish, (as a Temperal death, resulting from sin of the' us-ward' believer) but that all (of the Saved us-ward he is speaking to, would repent of their fleshly behavior and avoid perishing, physically) should come to repentance."

*2 PETER 3:9.

...

We however are free to believe or not to believe and follow His Word *JOHN 3:15-21.

> The Elect Believe and Confirm they are the Elect, when God Gives them Repentance and Faith.

The Elect "believe".

The Elect Believe and Confirm they are the "whosoever", when God Gives them Repentance and Faith.

...

God never forces us to believe and follow His Word and it is us that leaves and forsakes God by not believing and following God's Word

Philosophy.

Lost individuals warped Philosophy.

God has nothing to 'force', in a lost soul, to make them do anything Spiritual.

Their soul is dead, Spiritually.

The lost soul must be Born Again and Given Spiritual belief that they did not possess.

...

*HEBREWS 6:4-8;

4 "For it is impossible for those (8... that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.)
who were once enlightened, (been exposed to The Eternal Word of God) and have tasted the heavenly gifts (been exposed to The Eternal Word of God, but are those that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned) and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
been exposed to The Eternal Word of God, and it's Affect, with The Holy Spirit on other souls who got Saved, but are those that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned)

5" And have tasted the good word of God, (same) and the powers of the world to come, (same, and still lost)

6 "If they shall fall away, (since they thought they had Experienced something Spiritual, as others had, but they did not and were still lost) to renew them again unto repentance; (to go the same route they went before, with a substitute for actual God-Given Repentance, even though they had been exposed to Spiritual things, but were never Converted) seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (look, you said you 'repented' and were a Saved Child of God, now you are out in sin, like a lost person, because you are a lost person, and you want to go with the, 'I take it back, let me think simple fleshly 'belief' in something religious, like 'Jesus', and we'll say I'm 'saved' this time'. No. You are lost. Your religious going back and forth is irrational. You're saying Jesus 'Came Back and died again? Nope. They were and are:8 "... that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." .)

7. "For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

On and on.

Hello Allan, your post here is only repitition of what you posted on the last page that was already addressed through the scriptures. You were shown that your interpretation of the scriptures here in this post has no truth in it directly from the scriptures in the context you have left out in post # 93 linked here and post # 94 linked here that you simply ignored. Repeating yourself brother and ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

 

[3rdAngel]

The Gospel message ONLY works among the elect, as those still in their lost sin natures stay spiritually deaf and blind!

The Gospel is the Word of God and those who are God's Sheep choose to Hear His Voice (God's Word) and follow Him *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-28. Those who are not God's Sheep do not choose to hear His Voice or follow him. There no such thing as "once saved always saved". This is a false Gospel that has it's origin from the garden of Eden from the father of lies first told to Eve that caused the fall of all mankind *GENESIS 3:1-5.

God bless

 

[3rdAngel]

Does God have a free will? Can he violate his nature and send everyone in heaven to hell just to prove he can do it?

Of course God has free will. It is shown all through the scriptures where God gives his judgment to mankind for not believing and following His Word and changing what he decided to do when mankind repented. Why would he want to choose to go against his own nature? Seriously, are you really trying to argue now that God does not have free will? Your error here is in mixing up character (nature) with the ability to choose. Free will only gives us the power to choose. It is true that free will does not give us power to act against our natural nature but this is what salvation is and why we need the Gospel (God's Word) which is the power of God into salvation to everyone who believes. To act for God is God's Work in us as we believe His Word. When we believe God's Word God gives us the power to walk in His Spirit from the inside out.

 

[Alan Gross]

*Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,

&c.] The Syriac and Ethiopic versions render it, "baptized"; and the word is thought to be so used in ( Hebrews 10:32 ) .

And indeed baptism was called very early "illumination" by the ancients, as by Justin Martyr F9, and Clemens Alexandrinus F11, because only enlightened persons were the proper subjects of it;

and the word once here used seems to confirm this sense, since baptism, when rightly administered, was not repeated;

but then this sense depends upon an use of a word, which it is not certain did as yet obtain; nor does the apostle take notice of baptism in a parallel place, ( Hebrews 10:26 Hebrews 10:27 ) .

This gave rise to, and seems to favour the error of Novatus, that those who fall into sin after baptism are to be cut off from the communion of the church, and never more to be restored unto it;

contrary to the promises of God to returning backsliders, and contrary to facts, as well as to the directions of Christ, and his apostles, to receive and restore such persons;

and such a notion tends to set aside the intercession of Christ for fallen believers, and to plunge them into despair:

it is better therefore to retain the word "enlightened", in its proper sense, and to understand it of persons enlightened with Gospel knowledge;

there are some who are savingly enlightened by the Spirit of God, to see the impurity of their hearts and actions, and their impotency to perform that which is good, the imperfection of their own righteousness to justify them, their lost state and condition by nature, and to see Christ and salvation by him, and their interest in it;

and these being "once" enlightened, never become darkness, or ever so fall as to perish;

for if God had a mind to destroy them, he would never have shown them these things, and therefore cannot be the persons designed here;

unless we render the words, as the Syriac version does, "it is impossible"----(Nwjxy bwtd) ,

"that they should sin again";

so as to die spiritually,
lose the grace of God,
and stand in need of a new work upon them, which would be impossible to be done:

but rather such are meant, who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin,
but not the evil that is in sin;

to see the good things which come by Christ,
but not the goodness that is in Christ;

so as to reform externally,
but not to be sanctified internally;

to have knowledge of the Gospel doctrinally,
but not experimentally;

yea, to have such light into it,
as to be able to preach it to others,
and yet be destitute of the grace of God:

and have tasted of the heavenly gift;

... that hypocrites please themselves with, having some speculative notions about them, and some desires after them, arising from a natural principle of self-love",*

when they are:

Hebrews 6:8 "... that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

*Hebrews 6:4 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Sorry Allan I have no idea what your trying to say here....

I know.

You put Believers for lost people so many times, I think you're not able to get any of it.

 

[3rdAngel]

*Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,

&c.] The Syriac and Ethiopic versions render it, "baptized"; and the word is thought to be so used in ( Hebrews 10:32 ) .

And indeed baptism was called very early "illumination" by the ancients, as by Justin Martyr F9, and Clemens Alexandrinus F11, because only enlightened persons were the proper subjects of it;

and the word once here used seems to confirm this sense, since baptism, when rightly administered, was not repeated;

but then this sense depends upon an use of a word, which it is not certain did as yet obtain; nor does the apostle take notice of baptism in a parallel place, ( Hebrews 10:26 Hebrews 10:27 ) .

This gave rise to, and seems to favour the error of Novatus, that those who fall into sin after baptism are to be cut off from the communion of the church, and never more to be restored unto it;

contrary to the promises of God to returning backsliders, and contrary to facts, as well as to the directions of Christ, and his apostles, to receive and restore such persons;

and such a notion tends to set aside the intercession of Christ for fallen believers, and to plunge them into despair:

it is better therefore to retain the word "enlightened", in its proper sense, and to understand it of persons enlightened with Gospel knowledge;

there are some who are savingly enlightened by the Spirit of God, to see the impurity of their hearts and actions, and their impotency to perform that which is good, the imperfection of their own righteousness to justify them, their lost state and condition by nature, and to see Christ and salvation by him, and their interest in it;

and these being "once" enlightened, never become darkness, or ever so fall as to perish;

for if God had a mind to destroy them, he would never have shown them these things, and therefore cannot be the persons designed here;

unless we render the words, as the Syriac version does, "it is impossible"----(Nwjxy bwtd) ,

"that they should sin again";

so as to die spiritually,
lose the grace of God,
and stand in need of a new work upon them, which would be impossible to be done:

but rather such are meant, who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin,
but not the evil that is in sin;

to see the good things which come by Christ,
but not the goodness that is in Christ;

so as to reform externally,
but not to be sanctified internally;

to have knowledge of the Gospel doctrinally,
but not experimentally;

yea, to have such light into it,
as to be able to preach it to others,
and yet be destitute of the grace of God:

and have tasted of the heavenly gift;

... that hypocrites please themselves with, having some speculative notions about them, and some desires after them, arising from a natural principle of self-love",*

when they are:

Hebrews 6:8 "... that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

*Hebrews 6:4 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

I know.

You put Believers for lost people so many times, I think you're not able to get any of it.

Hello Allan nothing you have provided here or elsewhere says that HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HERBERWS 10:26-38 is not a WARNING to believers showing that BELIEVERS can FALL AWAY from God's Word back into a life of unrepentant sin. You have been provided God's Word that you have simply ignored showing scripture by scripture that HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 is in reference to those who were once BELIEVERS and departed the faith in post # 93 linked here and post # 94 linked here. Ignoring God's Word brother does not make it dissappear. This has only been sent in all respect and love and as a help to you. I hope you can receive it in the Spirit in which it was given (love). Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4. If you disagree please address the linked posts that show in detail that these scriptures are in reference to those who were once believers but departed the faith. If you cannot why do you not believe God's Word?

 

[Alan Gross]

Hello Allan nothing you have provided here or elsewhere says that HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HERBERWS 10:26-38 is not a WARNING to believers showing that BELIEVERS can FALL AWAY from God's Word back into a life of unrepentant sin. You have been provided God's Word that you have simply ignored showing scripture by scripture that HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 is in reference to those who were once BELIEVERS and departed the faith in post # 93 linked here and post # 94 linked here. Ignoring God's Word brother does not make it dissappear. This has only been sent in all respect and love and as a help to you. I hope you can receive it in the Spirit in which it was given (love). Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4. If you disagree please address the linked posts that show in detail that these scriptures are in reference to those who were once believers but departed the faith. If you cannot why do you not believe God's Word?

You put Believers for lost people, who are non-Elect, and have no will to come to Jesus, any more than any other Spiritually dead sinner, unless The Holy Spirit Makes them Alive,

which God Says are "rejected", in context.

"such are meant, who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin,
but not the evil that is in sin;

" to see the good things which come by Christ,
but not the goodness that is in Christ;

"so as to reform externally,
but not to be sanctified internally;

" to have knowledge of the Gospel doctrinally,
but not experimentally;"

... that hypocrites please themselves with, having some speculative notions about them, and some desires after them, arising from a natural principle of self-love",*

when they are:

Hebrews 6:8

"... that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected,

and is nigh unto cursing;

whose end is to be burned."

...

If they were able to consider that they are "rejected", they would.

For some reason, you add in that the wording can not be considered to mean, "rejected".

To you, you pronounce them 'Believers', because the Spiritual Reality of them being "rejected" is hidden, with no wise and prudent ability to will them to be considered anything but 'Believers'.

That's natural.

 

[utilyan]

It shows up in their attitudes. If water seeks its own level, then deciding to chum around with God when bad guys don't, says alot about the integrity of those who do.

I gave you a simple challenge. Name one person who gives themselves glory. I'm willing to bet 100% of Christians say Jesus saves them and the glory is his.

You sure you are not confusing your own self-righteousness. Since you THINK yourself better than everyone else you, just a shot in the dark they give themselves glory.

 

[Alan Gross]

Of course God has free will. It is shown all through the scriptures where God gives his judgment to mankind for not believing and following His Word and changing what he decided to do when mankind repented. Why would he want to choose to go against his own nature? Seriously, are you really trying to argue now that God does not have free will? Your error here is in mixing up character (nature) with the ability to choose. Free will only gives us the power to choose. It is true that free will does not give us power to act against our natural nature but this is what salvation is and why we need the Gospel (God's Word) which is the power of God into salvation to everyone who believes. To act for God is God's Work in us as we believe His Word. When we believe God's Word God gives us the power to walk in His Spirit from the inside out.

Those who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin,
but not the evil that is in sin will major on boasting about their 'will' and 'power to choose', rather than what....?

The evil that is in their personal sin.

Their 'will' and 'power to choose', in their personal SIN, is only evil.