Justification versus Eternal Redemption

[Darrell C]

when Christ put him to the test his fair expectations were blown to the winds and "he went away sorrowful" ( Matthew 19:22).*[/QUOTE

He wasn't the only one:


Matthew 26:71-75 King James Version (KJV)

71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.

72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.


We have already seen Peter vehemently reject the Gospel:


Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Because Peter was "weak in the flesh," as nearly every preacher I have ever heard teaches?

No, because the Gospel was not yet being revealed, it was still a Mystery.

Romans 5:12. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Right, death passed to all men...not sin, as many believe. Adam's provision for everlasting life was the Tree of Life, and being thrust out of the Garden...he died. Now all men suffer the penalty of sin because they do not have access to the Tree of Life.

But, what men need is to be alive in Christ, and that takes place when they are baptized into Christ. They have eternallife because they are now one with Eternal God:


John 14:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


John 17:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

*CHAPTER - INTRODUCTION

I am not in the habit of going through the works of men people think are relevant. If they are relevant and you have learned by them this should be expressed in your own postings.


God bless.

This is to remove an additional quotation code that keeps appearing

 

[Darrell C]

Quotation code kept popping up so decided to just redo this one. No changes were made to the responses.

when Christ put him to the test his fair expectations were blown to the winds and "he went away sorrowful" ( Matthew 19:22).*

He wasn't the only one:


Matthew 26:71-75 King James Version (KJV)

71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.

72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.


We have already seen Peter vehemently reject the Gospel:


Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Because Peter was "weak in the flesh," as nearly every preacher I have ever heard teaches?

No, because the Gospel was not yet being revealed, it was still a Mystery.

Romans 5:12. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Right, death passed to all men...not sin, as many believe. Adam's provision for everlasting life was the Tree of Life, and being thrust out of the Garden...he died. Now all men suffer the penalty of sin because they do not have access to the Tree of Life.

But, what men need is to be alive in Christ, and that takes place when they are baptized into Christ. They have eternallife because they are now one with Eternal God:


John 14:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


John 17:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

*CHAPTER - INTRODUCTION

I am not in the habit of going through the works of men people think are relevant. If they are relevant and you have learned by them this should be expressed in your own postings.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

"There is none righteous except righteous ones" is a brand spanking news flash hot off the press to me.

Seriously? lol

This is what you see when you read what I wrote? Let's try again:

So ask yourself this question: how can you say Abraham was declared righteous then maintain that in an eternal context with the above statement? Not only in the Psalmist's day, but in Paul's day it still remained true:


Romans 3:10-12 King James Version (KJV)

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


When was "There are none righteous" written? Before...or after Abraham?

THis is just one of numerous questions posed to you and the only thing I get is more insult. More insinuation. And more false representation of what I said.

It's a very simple point, so I will supply it to you: This was written after Abraham was declared righteous because He believe God, faith was established, and he performed works.

Yet still...there is none righteous, no not one.

We see that here as well...


Galatians 3:21-25 King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


There's a lot here for us:

1. The Law could not give life (and in view is eternal life), and that was the only provision they had (as well as those prior to the establishment of the Law, which made God's will formal for His people);

2. Scripture still held all men under the penalty for sin, which denies that being declared righteous removed Abraham's sin debt, which denies application of the Atonement prior to the Cross.

3. The Promise of the Father was still pending when this was written;

4. There was a time before faith in Christ (which is how men are justified on an eternal basis) came;

5. There was a time after faith came.

6: There was a time when men needed to be redeemed from the Law, which was not just the entire time the Covenant of Law was in force but all men prior to that as well;

7. There was a time when men were redeemed from the Law, hence Paul's later statement:


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


We know when God sent forth His Son, and we know why:


John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

When did you first make that up?

You are the one that "made that up." It isn't in what I said.

Never mind.

Oops...

The talk about bright ideas of what word gets someone to Heaven is irrelevant, unless a soul is first Brought to the Position of having some need for Salvation.

I would agree, that is why salvation is by grace.

Natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is at the top of that list. And we see that this is actually a primary ministry of the Comforter...after He is sent:


John 16:7-9 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Salvation is by the grace and mercy of God, despite the popular notion that we are saved by faith through grace, as one member unfortunately tried to argue.

He reveals the truth of our condition and we resond to that ministry. We cannot know we are sinners unless God makes this understood to us.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I don't know how many Gospels you think there are, but
Jesus is The Savior.

There is one Gospel of Jesus Christ, but that Gospel was revealed progressively over four millennia.

For example, the "Gospel" that those in the wilderness heard was that they would receive "rest." They understood that as a land where they would have peace and provision. We understand it as salvation in Christ.

Abraham heard the Gospel and understood it as Paul states here:


Galatians 3:6-8 King James Version (KJV)

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Jesus is The Savior.

Salvation and Redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under The Old and New Testament.

Great. Now all you need is Scripture to support that the Old Testament Saints were redeemed.

You won't find it. You should spend some time in Hebrews.

Jesus is The Savior.

Justification by the Righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament saints had Saving knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the New Testament saints, #Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.

Again, the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches:


Ephesians 3:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


You need to step away from books about the Bible and get into the Books of the Bible.

Jesus is The Savior.

Forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of The Old Testament, as now, in the New Testament have a comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.

Hmm, so if David had forgiveness of sins on an eternal basis...why does Scripture state he died in faith not receiving the Promise? The Promise is defined as remission of sins on an eternal basis:


Hebrews 10:15-18 King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

David offered up sacrifice his entire life and died not receiving remission of sins through Christ.

And how exactly did David have faith in Christ when he lived under the Law and Scripture makes it clear that faith in Christ was not yet available?


Galatians 3:21-25 King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Do you see in v.23 that faith in Christ would be revelaed...afterwards?

You are teaching the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches and this is because you are letting men do your thinking instead of your own personal study in GOd's Word.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Jesus is The Savior.

Regeneration, Spiritual circumcision, and Sanctification were what men were made partakers of under the first administration of the covenant Old Testament, as under the second administration of the covenant, #De 30:6 Php 3:3.

Deuteronomy 30:6 King James Version (KJV)

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.


First, the "living" they would receive is physical life. They would not be put to death physically if they loved God.

Secondly, you are again ignoring the fact that Regeneration required the death and Resurrection of Christ:


John 3:9, 14-16 King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I would also point out that the Gospel had to be revealed in order for men to be born again:


James 1:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


1 Peter 1:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


That the Gospel of Christ is in view is evident in the fact that the Law could not give life:


Galatians 3:21 King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.


And that this did not take place until the Incarnation is also evident:


John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Your other proof text...


Philippians 3 King James Version (KJV)

1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.


You have taken out of context. Not only does it not support Regeneration in the Old Testament, it refers to New Covenant believers. It contrasts Jews who are not believers with Jews who are.

Did you even look at any of these proof texts?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Jesus is The Savior.

Eternal life through Jesus Christ was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the NewTestament and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former, as of the latter dispensation, #Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.

It is true that after about two thousand years Propecy concerning the Christ began to be more developed so that men understood that a Messiah was coming, but faith in a prophesied Messiah is not the same as faith in the Risen Savior, Jesus Christ.

First, I have shown you that the Gospel was a Mystery and that faith in Christ was not available under the Law, which denies it being available prior to the establishment of the Law.

Secondly, if faith in a coming Messiah is all it took for one to be Eternally Redeemed...then we must declare that all Jews who believe the Old Testament and look for the Messiah to come are equivelant to born again believers.

Congratulations, you just created two ways for men to be saved. You should get busy, because there are many Jews you need to inform that they are part of the Church of Christ.

Of course where you are going to have difficulty is overcoming that one fatal flaw to your belief...they are rejecting Jesus Christ.

So congratulations, not only have you created two gospels, and two means for salvation...you have actually created one in which men can be saved and reject Jesus Christ all at the same time.

Jesus is The Savior.

In a word, under The Old and New Testament, they and we eat the same spiritual meat, and drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4.

No, actually "we" do not, unless you are a Jew.


1 Corinthians 10 King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


"They," not we.

We are baptized into Moses, we are baptized into Christ, they were not.

We partake of the Bread of Heaven, they did not.

They were followed by the Christ...whereas we follow him. He is our fore-runner, the Author and Finisher of our faith.

I know you probably do not see how weak your proof texts are, nor understand that instead of being able to go to the treasure of God's Word and defending the Faith you are forced to look to men for answers, but that is the case. The basic principles given in this thread will help you, but as the Lord stated, "...it is hard to kick against the goads."

adapted from: His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 4, Chapter 1

From what I have already seen an entirely unreliable resource. I would suggest you refrain from letting it keep you in the chains of tradition.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrel C, your avalanche of verbiage does not advance your view.

Hi Van, I will address your points when you address mine without insult.

Oh, and by the way, I agree, it isn't the detailed response with a Scriptural support that advances my view, it is the Word of God that does that.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

"Usually, people that are Saved have a Testimony that includes The Holy Spirit Spiritually Enabling their awareness of having been lost,..."

I think I forgot what you change around about The Fall of Adam.

You are quoting yourself. If you have a problem with it just look at my response to see how to address the error.

Is it like, "In the Day you eat thereof you shall surely die, but not physically, or Spiritually"?

You understand that the word "day" isn't limited to a 24 hour period, don't you?

You say, "In some other Day in the future Adam was to die, physically, but on the Day Adam ate thereof, Adam did not surely die, in any way".

Is that what you are saying, here? :

Precisely. I know popular and traditional teaching impose a "spiritual death" but the fact is that eternal life was not bestowed to men, including Adam...until Pentecost.

And I have given more than enough Scripture that, if you chose to have a serious conversation, that we could discuss.

I will once more post one that teaches this:

John 3:9, 14-16 King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You are avoiding the Scripture that is being provided to you. If you disagree with the point/s...address it directly.


God bless.

 

[Van]

Hi Van, I will address your points when you address mine without insult.
God bless.

No need, your avalanche of verbiage demonstrated an unwillingness to focus the truth, and constitutes an insult to every one reading this thread.

1) Faith (live faith) (faithful faith) (faith from which faithfulness flows) is not works.
To deny Romans 4 is to demolish any credibility for your assertion.

2) To deny the OT Saints were made perfect after Christ died is to demolish any credibility for your assertion.

3) In one case you said to be made perfect does not mean to be made flawless, yet in another place you say to be made perfect means your sins have been taken away.

4) By the works of the Law no flesh was justified. Your construct of temporal justification by works and eternal justification by faith and works is unsound in my opinion.

 

[Darrell C]

↑



The Holy Spirit has never baptized anything.

There is 'one baptism'.

Water.

First, the Holy Spirit is God, and God is One.

Do you not know, even after I have shown you in Scripture, that Christ prophesied the Eternal Indwelling of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

Here it is again:

John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him


Most read this and miss the treasure of information given us:


1. Christ promises the coming of "another Comforter (v.16):" in other words the Comforter that will come (which cannot come unless He leaves)...

A. Hasn't come yet (and we cannot impose a context of Him returning);
B. Is One of the same quality (allos);
C. Takes up the role Christ is performing (as the Consolation of Israel);
D. Unlike the Christ...will be with them forever (and two things to note is that He is not with them "forever" at the time of this teaching and that this "forever" contrasts the departure Christ is teaching them).

2. The Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, is with them, but, after He comes He will be in them, again...forever. (v.16). This contrasts the filling of the Spirit which has taken place since the beginning and the Eternal Indwelling which is the promise of the Father in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:27; Acts 1:4-5).

3. When the Spirit, the Comforter comes, we see the Eternal Unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in that when the Comforter comes Christ also comes to those He indwells, which is the "riches of the glory of the Mystery of the Gospel...Christ in us (Colossians 1:25-27)

4. The promise of eternal life (v.19). As Christ teaches in John 6:53, no man had life, because no man was yet "eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood of CHrist, or in other words...believing on the Gospel (the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ)

5. Verse 20: "At that day..." when the Comforter comes, they will know that He is in the Father, that they are in Him (Jesus), and Jesus in them. We cannot impose an understanding that they will simply know this then and that it is already happening, because He has already stated the Comforter is with them...but not in them. The only logical conclusion one can draw is that at the time Christ teaches this to the disciples He is not in them, and they are not in Him. And one basic truth of the Church is that only those who are in Christ are the Church.

6. When He (the Comforter) comes, they will be indwelt by the Father (v.23 and implied in v.20), the Son (vv.18, 20, and 23), and the Holy Ghost (vv.16-17). Not only is this teaching the Trinity but makes the point that the disciples still await the indwelling of God in a New Covenant context.

There are numerous other passages we can look at to show that there is a distinct difference between the filling of the Spirit which took place in the Old Testament (and still takes place today) and the Eternal Indwelling of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in the New Coveant believer (which did not take place in the Old Testament.

And again you teach contrarily to what Scripture teaches: You say there is only one baptism and that water baptism, so is that...

...the Promise of the Father?


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Do you really not see what Paul is saying here...


Ephesians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


...?


One Body...the Church.

One Spirit...God.

In us all.

You should revisit Acts 10-11, and see that Cornelius is saved when he receives the Baptism with the Spirit of God.

An argument that "...the Spirit never baptized anything" is no argument, it is a denial of Basic Bible Doctrine. When the Spirit of Truth was sent at Pentecost we see that He, and the Father, and the Son came.

Because they are One God.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

No need, your avalanche of verbiage demonstrated an unwillingness to focus the truth, and constitutes an insult to every one reading this thread.

Yes, because detailed presetations of Biblical Doctrine are always insulting.

Insulting to those who reject truth, yes.

You cannot even recognize you begin your entrance into this thread with an insult.

1) Faith (live faith) (faithful faith) (faith from which faithfulness flows) is not works.
To deny Romans 4 is to demolish any credibility for your assertion.

Show where I denied Romans 4. You haven't even read the OP have you?

Typical Van.

3) In one case you said to be made perfect does not mean to be made flawless, yet in another place you say to be made perfect means your sins have been taken away.

That is correct. HAving our sins forgiven on an eternal basis does not mean we become "flawless." And I explained that in my response to you.

If you want to talk with me, great. If you want to talk at me...find another thread to disrupt.

4) By the works of the Law no flesh was justified. Your construct of temporal justification by works and eternal justification by faith and works is unsound in my opinion.

Why would your opinion mean anything, Van? You don't even know what has been said. You can't even go through the short response I gave you and accurately understand what I said, much less anything of real volume.

So I will ask you a question based on your denial of what you think was said: if Abraham was righteous on an eternal basis why were there none righteous?

And this is the last response you get until you learn some manners.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I had to do this response separately because of the length:

2) To deny the OT Saints were made perfect after Christ died is to demolish any credibility for your assertion.

lol

Van, how can we have a discussion if you don't even bother reading the posts?

Show me where I denied the Old Testament Saints were made perfect after the Cross? I have made that clear throughout the thread:

I will leave you with another statement that has an eternal context and points out, as does Romans 3:25, that the sins of the Old Testament Saints were never forgiven on an eternal basis during their lifetimes:


Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Abraham was "saved" from an eternal perspective, but died awaiting Eternal Salvation through the Cross of Christ. There are only two means by which one could argue that Abraham's sins were atoned for on an eternal basis, and that would be (1) that The Atonement was imputed before it took place (which is error based on Scripture that makes it clear it was not) or (2) that the animal sacrifices offered up accomplished it, which is also error based on numerous passages, primarily those found in Hebrews. For example:


Hebrews 10:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

THe COvenant of Law is in view but the same principle applies throughout all Ages prior to this one, animal sacrifice could not take away sin on an eternal basis, only in a temporal context. That is why they had to continually be offered up over and over again.

The same is true concerning Justification, a man can be justified temporally based on his response to God's revealed will (belief, faith, works), but, one cannot be Eternally Justified apart from the Blood and Righteousness of Christ imputed to his behalf by grace.

If you back up you will see that the Writer makes it clear that it was not until Christ died that the sins of the Old Testament Saints were redeemed:


Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The "blood (death) of bulls, goats, and heifers" was the provision the Old Testament Saints had, and those sacrifices did not bring about remission of sins or atonement on an eternal basis, only the Blood (Death) of Christ can do that. We see marked in time His death and institution of the New Covenant. The Old Testament Saints were in need of redemption from the (Covenant of) Law, even the ones prior to the Covenant of Law being established, because "the Law" can also have a general application to the revealed will of God in any Age. When the Law was established it did not vary from the revelaed will men had been given before that, so those who were guilty of breaking the Law in the Ages prior to the Age of Law had to be redeemed as well.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

2) To deny the OT Saints were made perfect after Christ died is to demolish any credibility for your assertion.

This is true. In the Ages prior to this one men were justified in a temporal context, not an eternal. It is only after Christ died that the Old Testament Saints were Justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 3:21-25 King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Abraham was justified but died still in need of having his sins forgiven on an eternal basis:


Hebrews 10 King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Now let's see the Sacrifice that can make perfect/complete (in regards to why they are offered, remission of sins and atonement for sin) take away sins...forever:


Hebrews 10:10-14 King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


The sacrifices of the Law could not make perfect/complete, but CHrist's does so on an eternal basis. THat is what Abraham did not receive during his lifetime:


Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


They died not being made perfect/complete in regards to remission of sin and atonement, for God did not mean for it to take place "without us," which is verified in 1 Peter 1:10-12 where we see that the Prophets knew they ministered to a future generation.

Going back to Chapter Ten, let's look at the promise of the Father:


Hebrews 10:15-18 King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


When animals died in the stead of the sinner they had to be repeated, as mentioned numerous times in the above passages.

When Christ dies in the stead of a sinner...it never has to be repeated, because He has made that sinner perfect/complete in regards to Remission of Sin and Atonement.

And that doesn't even include what I stated in my first response to you or the posts that follow.

Pay attention and stop making false accusations.


God bless.

 

[Van]

Yes, because detailed presentations of Biblical Doctrine are always insulting.

[SNIP]

So I will ask you a question based on your denial of what you think was said: if Abraham was righteous on an eternal basis why were there none righteous?

And this is the last response you get until you learn some manners.

God bless.

1) No one made you hall monitor.
2) Scripture does not say Abraham was made righteous, his faith was credited to him as righteousness.
3) Everyone God puts in Christ is made righteous, flawless, holy and blameless, by the washing of regeneration and the circumcision of Christ.
4) Faith (live faith) (faithful faith) (faith from which faithfulness flows) is not works.
To deny Romans 4 is to demolish any credibility for your assertion.
5) To deny the OT Saints were made perfect after Christ died is to demolish any credibility for your assertion.
6) In one case you said to be made perfect does not mean to be made flawless, yet in another place you say to be made perfect means your sins have been taken away.
7) By the works of the Law no flesh was justified. Your construct of temporal justification by works and eternal justification by faith and works is unsound in my opinion.

 

[Van]

How and when are we justified? Under the Old Covenant and under the New Covenant?

According to Hebrews 11, the OT Saints obtained approval by faith. Now when we see the word "faith" we need to read it as meaning "live faith" or "faithful faith" or faith from which faithfulness flows. The faith in view is not dead faith, superficial faith, or lip service faith.

Recall that God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness, thus Abraham's approval was based not on works, but God knowing Abraham's heart, on Abraham's "all in" commitment to God and His promises.

Having obtained approval, when the OT Saints died, they were taken to a place of comfort, where they waited until after Christ died on the cross. They had not been made perfect, flawless, but were then made perfect by the washing of regeneration, and so then (after Christ died) they entered the kingdom of God in heaven.

Our justification is the same, only we do not wait, God puts us in Christ where we undergo the washing of regeneration and we arise in Christ a new creation, made holy and perfect.

 

[Alan Gross]

Deuteronomy 30:6 King James Version (KJV)

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.


First, the "living" they would receive is physical life. They would not be put to death physically if they loved God.

Secondly, you are again ignoring the fact that Regeneration required the death and Resurrection of Christ:


John 3:9, 14-16 King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I would also point out that the Gospel had to be revealed in order for men to be born again:


James 1:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


1 Peter 1:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


That the Gospel of Christ is in view is evident in the fact that the Law could not give life:


Galatians 3:21 King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.


And that this did not take place until the Incarnation is also evident:


John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Your other proof text...


Philippians 3 King James Version (KJV)

1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.


You have taken out of context. Not only does it not support Regeneration in the Old Testament, it refers to New Covenant believers. It contrasts Jews who are not believers with Jews who are.

Did you even look at any of these proof texts?


Continued...

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Secondly, you are again ignoring the fact that Regeneration required the death and Resurrection of Christ:

Who's ignoring it?

Jesus.

 

[Alan Gross]

First, the Holy Spirit is God, and God is One.

Do you not know, even after I have shown you in Scripture, that Christ prophesied the Eternal Indwelling of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

Here it is again:





And again you teach contrarily to what Scripture teaches: You say there is only one baptism and that water baptism, so is that...

...the Promise of the Father?


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Do you really not see what Paul is saying here...


Ephesians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


...?


One Body...the Church.

One Spirit...God.

In us all.

You should revisit Acts 10-11, and see that Cornelius is saved when he receives the Baptism with the Spirit of God.

An argument that "...the Spirit never baptized anything" is no argument, it is a denial of Basic Bible Doctrine. When the Spirit of Truth was sent at Pentecost we see that He, and the Father, and the Son came.

Because they are One God.


God bless.

Alan Gross said:

The Holy Spirit has never baptized anything.

Then, to place the dependance of one's soul on something the doesn't exist is Eternally Fatal.

The Coming of The Holy Spirit on Pentecost has no relationship, or association, or affect, on anyone concerning the subject of Salvation.

 

[Alan Gross]

You are quoting yourself. If you have a problem with it just look at my response to see how to address the error.






You understand that the word "day" isn't limited to a 24 hour period, don't you?




Precisely. I know popular and traditional teaching impose a "spiritual death" but the fact is that eternal life was not bestowed to men, including Adam...until Pentecost.

And I have given more than enough Scripture that, if you chose to have a serious conversation, that we could discuss.

I will once more post one that teaches this:





You are avoiding the Scripture that is being provided to you. If you disagree with the point/s...address it directly.


God bless.

Alan Gross said:

"Usually, people that are Saved have a Testimony that includes The Holy Spirit Spiritually Enabling their awareness of having been lost,..."


I think I forgot what you change around about The Fall of Adam.

"You are quoting yourself. If you have a problem with it just look at my response to see how to address the error.



Is it like, "In the Day you eat thereof you shall surely die, but not physically, or Spiritually"?

This is how you change it around:

You understand that the word "day" isn't limited to a 24 hour period, don't you?

You say, "In some other Day in the future Adam was to die, physically, but on the Day Adam ate thereof, Adam did not surely die, in any way".

Is that what you are saying, here? :

This is how you change it around:

Precisely. I know popular and traditional teaching impose a "spiritual death" but the fact is that eternal life was not bestowed to men, including Adam...until Pentecost.

And I have given more than enough Scripture that, if you chose to have a serious conversation, that we could discuss.


So, while people that are Saved have a Testimony that includes The Holy Spirit Spiritually Enabling their awareness of having been lost,...

... those that have a Testimony of not being aware of ever having been lost and

... take the Words in The Book and change them around to make sure there is nothing to see there..

... then make up any number of different ideas about something they 'think'.

That is why discussing Job saying, "I know my Redeemer Lives", is a waste of time, because 'thinking', involving a flat out denial of God's Doctrine of Total Depravity will just 'change it all around into a twisted knot'.

I've never even heard of Eternal Life not Coming until Pentecost being made up.

Where did you get that invention, so I can talk to them about, "Why Would God Save a sinner?"

 

[Alan Gross]

First, the Holy Spirit is God, and God is One.

Do you not know, even after I have shown you in Scripture, that Christ prophesied the Eternal Indwelling of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

Here it is again:





And again you teach contrarily to what Scripture teaches: You say there is only one baptism and that water baptism, so is that...

...the Promise of the Father?


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Do you really not see what Paul is saying here...


Ephesians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


...?


One Body...the Church.

One Spirit...God.

In us all.

You should revisit Acts 10-11, and see that Cornelius is saved when he receives the Baptism with the Spirit of God.

An argument that "...the Spirit never baptized anything" is no argument, it is a denial of Basic Bible Doctrine. When the Spirit of Truth was sent at Pentecost we see that He, and the Father, and the Son came.

Because they are One God.


God bless.

John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

The Comfortor was Promised by God to Given to The Lord Jesus' Kind of Organized Assembly, gathered there listening to their Founder, Who Divinely Instituted her.

Jesus Promise is for The Comfortor to be with and in The Lord Jesus' Kind of Organized Assemblies, like the one gathered there listening to their Founder, Who Divinely Instituted her, as a Corporate Entity.

The Comfortor Will be with Lord Jesus' Kind of Organized Assembly, like the one gathered there listening to their Founder, Who Divinely Instituted her, FOREVER.

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The Holy Spirit is in these individuals, who are Saved, like all other saints throughout Time and The Spirit of Truth is Promised to be Given as Another Comfortor to Indwell The Lord Jesus' Kind of Organized Assembly, like the kind gathered there listening to their Founder, Who Divinely Instituted her.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus, The Second Person in The Triune Godhead, Who is their Eternal Savior, Will Send The Third Person of The Triune Godhead to be a Comfortor to The Lord Jesus' Kind of Organized Assembly, gathered there listening to their Founder, Who Divinely Instituted her.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him

...

Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

"being assembled together" is the only Kind of Organized Assembly, gathered there listening to their Founder, Who Divinely Instituted her, that has ever existed.

Any deviation into a Spiritually Adulterous form of false religious perversions invented by man, are Satanic,

and guess what?

The Comfortor, The Shakina Glory of God, The Annointing of The Most Holy, that Jesus Baptized HIS CHURCH WITH, has had her Candlestick Removed, and...?

ICHABOD is Written above the door.

THE GLORY OF THE LORD HAS DEPARTED.

YOU PEOPLE THINK YOU WANT TO PLAY CHURCH AND GO WITH TEACHING A 'BIBLE' AND DON'T KNOW THE FIRST THING ABOUT A 'CHURCH', MUCH LESS JESUS' CHURCH? THAT HE LOVED AND DIED FOR?

WHY DO YOU THINK SOUND TEACHING IS ALL BUT GONE?

AND THE LORD'S CHURCHES AND THE WORD OF GOD ARE SAID BY MOST HERE TO BE DEAD IN THE STREET, AS IF THEY ARE THE TWO WITNESSES OF REVELATION AND THEY ARE AND YOU DON'T KNOW IT?

AND WHO WILL BE THE FIRST TO SAY "JESUS DIDN'T HAVE HIS CHURCHES LIKE THOSE 7 IN REVELATION THAT HE IS BIG ENOUGH TO PRESEVE BY THE INDWELLING POWER OF GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT..."?

AND THAT "THE BIBLE IS NOT INSPIRED" ?

AN INTERNET BOARD FOR ' BAPTISTS'?



5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

These members of The Lord Jesus' Kind of Organized Assembly, gathered there listening to their Founder, Who Divinely Instituted her, were all Saved and as a Corporate ENTITY that Jesus Called, "My church" He Built, would be Baptized by Jesus with the Preserving, Supernatural Intendence, Governing, and Teaching Ministry of The Shaina Glory of God.

Jesus Baptized His church, as a Divine Institution.

Jesus did not baptize anyone, as an individual.

Jesus' baptism did not concern 'salvation', in any sence, form, or Act.

The Holy Spirit has never baptized anything.

There is no Bible Teaching of The Baptism of The Holy Spirit at all.


...

Ephesians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body,

These members in Ephesis, of The Lord Jesus' Kind of Organized Assembly, gathered there listening about The Lord Jesus' churches, Who Divinely Instituted her, were all Saved and as a Corporate Entity Jesus congregating in Ephesis in as what Jesus Called, "My church" He Built, where Subject, as a body of believers, to The Holy Spirit Indwelling their church gathering, because The first church Entity of Jesus had been Baptized by Jesus with the Preserving, Supernatural Intendence, Governing, and Teaching Ministry of The Shaina Glory of God.

"Where two or three are gathered together, IN MY NAME", is identifying Jesus' Organized church body, assembling.

These members in Ephesis, of The Lord Jesus' Kind of Organized Assembly, gathered there listening about The Lord Jesus' churches, Who Divinely Instituted her, and were all Saved and as a Corporate Entity of Jesus,

and were there congregating in Ephesis as what Jesus Called, "My church" He Built and where Subject, as a body of believers, to The Holy a Spirit Indwelling their church gathering and THERE IS ONLY ONE KIND OF CHURCH "BODY" and that is it.

One body that can assemble.

The seven churches of Asia were each one body.

They were seven church bodies of Jesus, with Jesus as their Head.

The seven churches of Asia were each one body.



and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith,

Not 14, or 56,732.

one baptism,

water, any other usage of the word, 'baptise' are figurative and symbolic.

Jesus Immersed His Kind of church bodies with The Holy Spirit to Ensure their PRESERVATION.

Baptist Believing churches of the The Lord Jesus that are the Kind of Organized Assembly that gather to Glorify God in the way Jesus Taught her, and Who Divinely Instituted her, and who Contain The Indwelling Comfortor of God The Holy Spirit Overseeing them, have been on Earth since Jesus Founded the first one, during His Earthy Ministry.

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

These believers, as all believers, were Partakers of The Divine Nature.

 

[Darrell C]

Who's ignoring it?

Jesus.

Not sure that the One teaching it can be said to be ignoring it, lol.


God bless.